Top 12 7 Wonders of Pharae

evilbaam

Hipparchus
I think @That Guy has a point. What is the practical difference between an alliance that has already gathered a very experienced premade alliance before the world has begun and an alliance that is trying to do the exact same thing while the world is in play? One could argue that premades are just as destructive as hugging. When you look at it this way, TF and others are only trying to catch up to what Hugs have already done.

Hugs are talking about 'unbalanced odds' and yes, it is very easy to argue that the odds are unbalanced. 60 v hundreds. But by creating the odds so heavily in their own favour before the world, maybe the odds are now just starting to level out in favour of everyone else?

I'm not saying premade alliances shouldn't be a thing as it's always going to be the case (and should be the case) that friends will play together on several worlds. But it must be realised that doing this elevates the skill and dedication required to overcome such alliances. When you don't have a good (or any) premade, then you should do your best to find the best players to match the best premade, which is what TF and others are doing.

Everyone says that hugging ruins worlds. I agree that it does. But do premades ruin worlds? I think that's a very reasonable question too. When we say 'destructive', what do we mean? The tactic causes a reduction in the player base? If so, I think hugging is more 'casual-player friendly' than premades are. But that's a whole other argument I won't start on.

I'm not targeting anyone who is hugging and making premades (we're all doing one or the other to some extent). Of course players will play together on several worlds, and of course players will use hugging techniques to counter these premades. Both are natural developments. Maybe the common denominator is that we need a new end game system to alleviate the affects of these tactics and help to increase the player base.
sigh its like you guys arent even trying to understand. When we dropped into to this world, we had always expected it to be us against the world. We decided..... ahhhh chuck it. No point repeating same things again and again if people take in only what they want to take in.
 

Thizzle

Strategos
Another excuse now. We play to much lol.

This one we might be guilty of, but i know there are several others with the same addiction out there.

We are not complaining about u pacting and merging against us, this is a very much expected outcome and happens every server. We always Play servers like this, No pacts No naps. Makes it alot more fun.

We are being accused of alot of things and we are just trying to point out the facts. This game is not unbalanced because of us, its unbalanced because of you. You think you are helping your odds improve, but All your really doing is the opposite, by limiting your own growth :)

We came here as a 30 and some player premade. About half of those were core players, the rest were former enemies from other servers. The remaining 30ish players were recruited here.

TF is a premade, HH is pretty much a premade, Noname is a premade. Premades in some cases are very much the problem, but its about how u do your premade.

Do you join with 1 premade and stick to the alliance max or do you join the server as 4 premades. Or join the server and then pact with Half the server and down the line merge together.

Lastly to answer your question about alliances pacting/merging to gain experianced players for their one alliance (just like a premade).

No experianced player would join an MRA or pact/nap/merge alliance. Those players u see around, that stay allianceless in enemy territory and fight on their own, thats the players u want. Thats the players who refused to join in on the hugging. The rest are just cannon fodder and u Will not find anything of use there, unless its their cities.

TF merged with 8 alliances, where are those 450 players now? Have a thought about that
 

VladimirVonEire

Phrourach
My post was solely made to illustrate the futility of arguing about different play styles when the game is designed for both hugging and premades to be natural occurrences. Both are destructive when you look at it from a certain point of view, but they are also both necessary in order to win.

As I said, I am not targeting anyone. I was just picking up on something That Guy said which I thought was interesting. If anything, I'm aiming my post at Inno.
 

Nanotechno

Lochagos
My post was solely made to illustrate the futility of arguing about different play styles when the game is designed for both hugging and premades to be natural occurrences. Both are destructive when you look at it from a certain point of view, but they are also both necessary in order to win.
If you have such a problem with premades, maybe you shouldn't be a founder in HH/MD, a premade alliance?

Also, you seem to have forgotten that TF is ALSO a premade.
 

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VladimirVonEire

Phrourach
Once again, I state that my post was using illustrative examples to make a wider point. Yes, TF is a premade but that does not change what I am saying about the impact of premades/hugging on the game in general.

I don't have any problems with anyone's play styles. The problem lies in how the game is designed and the way people play is adding to its destructive nature. But players play to win so changes need to come from Inno. I'm sorry that I seem to have been completely misunderstood. As players playing a game that is dying, I was hoping we could come together and form a common opinion about how the game design is forcing us to destructively reduce the player base even further.

I stated in my first post:

'I'm not targeting anyone who is hugging and making premades (we're all doing one or the other to some extent). Of course players will play together on several worlds, and of course players will use hugging techniques to counter these premades. Both are natural developments. Maybe the common denominator is that we need a new end game system to alleviate the affects of these tactics and help to increase the player base.'

By the way, I didn't know anyone when I founded Infernal Abyss which is now HH. There are 9 former Mad Dogs in HH. None of them are in our top 10 players and all of their cities are pretty much doomed in the middle of yours. o_O
 
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Masab

Taxiarch
sigh its like you guys arent even trying to understand. When we dropped into to this world, we had always expected it to be us against the world. We decided..... ahhhh chuck it. No point repeating same things again and again if people take in only what they want to take in.
Funny that you say that. If that was the case then why are hugs now complaining and moaning about others joining up to fight and going on about how collations are killing grepo ? If you expected this to be the outcome that would make you part of the reason as to why grepo is dying no?

'I'm not targeting anyone who is hugging and making premades (we're all doing one or the other to some extent). Of course players will play together on several worlds, and of course players will use hugging techniques to counter these premades. Both are natural developments. Maybe the common denominator is that we need a new end game system to alleviate the affects of these tactics and help to increase the player base.'
A point very well made.

Always two sides to a problem, to solely blame "hugging" and collations for grepos decline shows a great level of ignorance. Surely the solution lies somewhere between the two.

No experianced player would join an MRA or pact/nap/merge alliance
Just because you wont doesn't mean others wont as well, honesty buddy widen your horizons a little at least try to see from a different perspective lol . I started in a MRA with players who have plenty of experience and have won worlds. Also you complain about a lack of players joining grepo but how do you expect them to join, grow and survive without MRA, pacts and naps? Are hugs really going to take in new players and help them grow? I don't think so.
 

Thizzle

Strategos
Funny that you say that. If that was the case then why are hugs now complaining and moaning about others joining up to fight and going on about how collations are killing grepo ? If you expected this to be the outcome that would make you part of the reason as to why grepo is dying no?



A point very well made.

Always two sides to a problem, to solely blame "hugging" and collations for grepos decline shows a great level of ignorance. Surely the solution lies somewhere between the two.



Just because you wont doesn't mean others wont as well, honesty buddy widen your horizons a little at least try to see from a different perspective lol . I started in a MRA with players who have plenty of experience and have won worlds. Also you complain about a lack of players joining grepo but how do you expect them to join, grow and survive without MRA, pacts and naps? Are hugs really going to take in new players and help them grow? I don't think so.
In fact we have taken in about 30 of Them this server. And we take in new players each server
 

Masab

Taxiarch
In fact we have taken in about 30 of Them this server. And we take in new players each server
You have taken in Experienced Players not new players to grepolis. I am sure you can tell that by looking at the grepo scores of most of your team mates. Even if you have taken a few what about the rest... MRA are for new players to the game you cant sit here and argue that.
 
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Thizzle

Strategos
Actually we take new players each server and help Them. And with the MRA statement is where u go wrong. New players have nothing to do in MRAs, thats where they lose the Will to Play because they get eaten.

Anyways i hit send way to fast on earlier post.

F"that you say that. If that was the case then why are hugs now complaining and moaning about others joining up to fight and going on about how collations are killing grepo ? If you expected this to be the outcome that would make you part of the reason as to why grepo is dying no?"

We are not complaining and moaning, look at our dbp. + 1 million in 2 Weeks and almost No city losses, well Worth it. Please keep cuddling.

You All just Seem to complain about loads of stuff and im trying to tell you why you are not so succesful. Your hugging keeps you from growing.

And how could we be the part of the problem for sticking to 60 players and fighting everyone? As Ares pointed out, theres a World where u cant "die" Those who want to sim can always Play there

Anyways we are going in circles, see you ingame. And in case you wanna talk you can pm me there
 

SycOPath

Chiliarch
An interesting read indeed.

I see the word respect being branded about, but I think some of you have forgotten to get respect first you have to earn that respect. But even then not everyone will show you that respect for reasons only known to them.

As for insults to other players, insults follow certain players from world to world like a bad smell. Some deserve it others maybe not. Welcome to the externals.

Pacts, naps, mergers, coalitions are all part of Grepo, no one is denying that. But the blatant tree hugging parties that go on are hurting and in part killing Grepo.

An example of this being 4 alliances in the top 10 of a world working together to achieve the same aim. But come crunch time the leaders/founders hand picking the players that they want out that pool of players to win that world and the rest are left hanging and get nothing.

We've all seen it happen before and it'll keep on happening until either InnoGames does something about it or players themselves stand up and choose not to play that way.

Gold usage, we at Hugs have been accused of using gold, again no one is denying that. There are individuals in other alliances that are heavy gold users as well. If you want to spend your hard earned cash on gold and you can afford to do it without letting your family go short on their everyday needs then that's your business and no one else's. I prefer to trade for gold and only use when I have to like the vast majority of other players. Gold and how it is obtained and used will always be an issue in this game.

Game playing time for I would say 97% of players is impacted by RL. Players having Jobs, having families, poor health, students at exam time, forces personnel with limited access and god forbid having a social life away from Grepo. There maybe a few players who can play Grepo all the time and that's all they do but I'm sure that called using an illegal BOT cause there is no way human can play that way.

Game play, I'm not going to say there is a right or a wrong way to play Grepo, experienced players know how to play this game. But fun is important after all it's only a game. But I will say is command, control and communication is paramount to wining and still having fun.

I think a lot of people have forgotten that we are actually playing in a Domination world where you have to dominate as much as possible in an unknown yet specified area to be marked by InnoGames and non farm rocks aren't included.

Disclaimer - Everything written in this post is just my opinion of things I've seen whilst playing this game. Some people may agree with them and others will no doubt disagree and shoot me down in flames again welcome to the externals.
 
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Hyperadox

Hekatontarch
HH is pretty much a premade
None of us knew each other when we came into the world. Maybe some of the MADDOGS, but we only have a handful of them (Though we love them all the same <3). Our playstyle would be better described as pooling the players of our area, and weeding out simmers and inactives to create the best team we can. We're currently working on consolidating into one alliance, and dissolving the sister alliance.

Could that be considered an MRA?

I agree that this argument is pointless. The day that we start telling other people how to play the game is the day that we take the fun out of the game entirely. Pretty sure that's what caused most of the world wars. People just wanted to tell other people what to do. So can we all agree to shut up and prove ourselves in game?

Also stop complaining about gold, everyone has an opportunity to trade it, which makes it a viable in game tactic, and not entirely pay-to-win. Everyone uses gold at some point, and all that matters is how the timing and effectiveness of when you use it.
 

1saaa

Phrourach
As the old founder of MAD DOGS i would like to clarify something about my team. We jumped into this server as a roughly 30 man pre-made (if my memory serves me well). Then after being Oped by Oblivion and being hit by hugs at the same time a lot of players got fed up with the slow speed and left for faster waters. Those who are left are the ones that can put up with the slow speed and have a lot of grit. those players add up to about 10 people (9 if you knock me off). that is about the same number of people that MAD DOGS dropped with on Leontini and anyone who was with us on that server knows that we were not a pre-made. Hell Hounds is not a pre-made. Full stop, no debate, no argument.
 

Ponini21

Chiliarch
None of us knew each other when we came into the world. Maybe some of the MADDOGS, but we only have a handful of them (Though we love them all the same <3). Our playstyle would be better described as pooling the players of our area, and weeding out simmers and inactives to create the best team we can. We're currently working on consolidating into one alliance, and dissolving the sister alliance.

Could that be considered an MRA?

I agree that this argument is pointless. The day that we start telling other people how to play the game is the day that we take the fun out of the game entirely. Pretty sure that's what caused most of the world wars. People just wanted to tell other people what to do. So can we all agree to shut up and prove ourselves in game?

Also stop complaining about gold, everyone has an opportunity to trade it, which makes it a viable in game tactic, and not entirely pay-to-win. Everyone uses gold at some point, and all that matters is how the timing and effectiveness of when you use it.
Well technically I know Vlad from another world, in which he created IA, and that alliance after defeating/merging a core alliance became fourth place, which the
fourth place merged with the 2nd place alliance and eventually won the world. I don't known if it counts though as I joined the world months after Vlad, he was on the cusp of 100,000 when I joined Hell Hounds.

Now technically IA didn't win that world, but half of the winning team where Infernal Abyss players who spawned in 34 and some even in 33. To me that was my 2nd favorite world because, while I don't hate premades, I like joining worlds solo as to me it's more fun than knowing everyone beforehand, and it was probably one of the last world's where a partially rim alliance that wasn't premade, won the world.
 

1saaa

Phrourach
'I'm not targeting anyone who is hugging and making premades (we're all doing one or the other to some extent). Of course players will play together on several worlds, and of course players will use hugging techniques to counter these premades. Both are natural developments. Maybe the common denominator is that we need a new end game system to alleviate the affects of these tactics and help to increase the player base.'
Alright i have one issue with this, you say that hugging is a counter to pre-mades but from what i have see its pre-mades who are doing the hugging. Humans are naturally lazy which is why these solutions have been created by players who are looking to cut the corners. the thing about pre-mades is i think Inno has to an extent actively encouraged that via invite links and invite anchors. i think the original designers wanted grepo to be a social experience as well as a war game. So, a war game you play with friends :D That is kinda what a pre-made is. I have rarely been inside one (apart from MAD DOGS) but the atmosphere inside is one where they are already team. Social hubs for players to chat and good leadership allow pre-mades to go from server to another.

Pre-mades also allow people to develop habits of being with that team. True Fear players have stayed with James for a lot of reasons. But, i imagine one of them is that a lot of players hold a lot of personal loyalty towards James that has been built up across multiple servers. that is why pre-mades that already exist work so well whilst the ones formed on the externals work less well (generally speaking).

The same goes with me. I honestly could not imagine grepo not playing with my mates from MAD DOGS (now merged :() in Side and the same goes for all you wonderful people at Hell Hounds :)

Now i think the thing about hugging is that it was not part of designers intent. Pacting is a thing and NAPing i am sure Inno has encouraged to an extent at some point. But, if the designers truly intended for mass hugging to be actively used then why is it that in domination only one alliance can win? that was Inno making an attempt to prevent hugging via providing an incentive to not be part of the 2nd or 3rd branch of whatever team your in. Sorry about the long essay but that is just what i think.

if you have any question please feel free to contact me :)
 
designers intent...

Is there a hidden manifesto or a Grepo bible that I am unaware of detailing the intent of its designers? Lots of people talking about what they intended... I am pretty sure they intended to make money.
 
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Masab

Taxiarch
designers intent...

Is there a hidden manifesto or a Grepo bible that I am unaware of detailing the intent of its designers? Lots of people talking about what they intended... I am pretty sure they intended to make money.
Being a Software developer myself and having spent a lot of time around game developers they usually have a vision and intent for the game and how it should be played
 

Raydium88

Phrourach
I totally agree! So how does everyone know what that intent is was my point :)
By all means don't quote me on this, but I do recall most of the developers' ideas and viewpoints towards what they expected of the game to be played as, confirmed on the Grepolis devblog. This was at a time when they still allowed visitors to leave comments and feedback. Again, I could go look for it and find you a link but that was a long time ago.

I think most of the expectations we have towards what's acceptable and not, comes down to common sense of the playerbase. Even tho said practices are not deemed illegal/bannable/enforced, we are still allowed to disagree on them... nothing wrong with that.
 

Masab

Taxiarch
I think most of the expectations we have towards what's acceptable and not, comes down to common sense of the playerbase. Even tho said practices are not deemed illegal/bannable/enforced, we are still allowed to disagree on them... nothing wrong with that.
I think most that just comes from how far you are willing to go to win. Some farther than others off course