A call to all rebels to attack the Empire (Victrix)

FutbolTango

Banned
Banned
you definitely don't understand how it works then. democracy doesn't work. democratically electing officials to represent us is different. and in a way, we do that in grepo by staying in the alliance. however leaders are chosen for your alliance, you stay in the alliance and accept them as your leader, or go elsewhere and find or start something different. that's how your vote works in grepo.

i don't think you understand many of the terms you are using. so here are some definitions for you.

autocracy - a system of government by one person with absolute power.

if your alliance has one founder and one founder only and no leaders have any other say, you should vote no and leave that alliance and go find or start something better.

fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

you can see by this definition that 'fascist autocratic' is a redundant term. and you have it backwards at that. and you are incorrect to say that 'few people make decisions' because by definition, its actually only one person that makes decisions. but to be considered fascist, you have to be going way over the line. and i can't really see any alliance having even minimal lvls of success like that, because every player can always choose to leave their alliance. if it were fascism, it would be FORCIBLE suppression. so by definition, there cannot be any fascism in grepo because no leader can stop any player from leaving the alliance.

furthermore, what kind of a fascist is going around hugging and signing non aggression pacts? lol get real buddy. you are wrong on all counts.
also, autonomy of play, encouraging smaller players, and diplomacy complaints should be directed at leader decisions and leadership styles, not systems of government. that being said, no one is perfect. most leaders put in a lot of time and effort to play the game and see that they can help others come together to have fun and compete. they do it for free. many even pay to do it (buys gold and what not). i am certain that your leaders put in a lot more time and effort into their alliances than you put into this lazy excuse for propaganda.

there are pawns on every chessboard. you in fact are one. you obviously don't understand what you have regurgitated here.
Thank you for the reply. I do understand the terms, perhaps even more than what you think.

I would expand since these are issues that have importance within Grepolis.

There are various definitions of fascism, autocracy, democracy, autonomy and self determination.

We do not need to exactly agree on them, nor need to exactly define them for our purposes. As long as we roughly understand the implications.

Since you and TJ Kaniben are benefiting of the most common structure that operates, then I do not expect you to agree with what I am saying or the definition of those terms. This is natural since is in your best interest that no new arrangements are tried or proposed.

Lets first address the issue of founding an alliance. The mechanism by which an alliance is founded is irrelevant.
It is the decision making process of the individuals, the groups, and the representation what matters.

I disagree that democracy can not work in Grepolis. When I was in Thermopylae, and we won that server by a true landslide, I saw that many democratic principles were put in place organically and with spontaneity. It worked greatly because people in small groups were making great decisions about defensive and offensive operations without having leaders biases or egos in the way.

It is human nature. At the end, leaders in Grepolis end up doing what is best for them and not the entire group. For sure, they try to pretend or dress it up, but it is classic prinicipal-agent problem.

Currently in most alliances, very, few people are the ones that make the decisions about strategy, conquests, new memberships, election of council members and so on. Most people simply follow blindly what the leaders dictate, and in many aspects people are intimidated if they do not follow what they are told to execute. In some worlds, the outcome of the wars or the server comes down to the opinions of very few people.

Most alliances has fascist tendencies and yours more than any other one.
You yourself state: "democracy doesn't work"
This what Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Pinochet, and many other dictators believe. This is the essence of fascism. The suppression of individual decision making, self expression, the intolerance of dissent, and the denigration or exclusion of those who voice a different opinion.

I never heard of you asking questions to the rank and file. Asking for opinions. Having elections to see if new people should be making decisions, and allowing people to disagree. Even in the open forums, you are coming here and telling me that I am wrong and ignorant.

I firmly believe that it is possible to arrange alliances in a more democratic way where the autonomy of players is respected and encouraged.
 

MAC-9

Chiliarch
Thank you for the reply. I do understand the terms, perhaps even more than what you think.

I would expand since these are issues that have importance within Grepolis.

There are various definitions of fascism, autocracy, democracy, autonomy and self determination.

We do not need to exactly agree on them, nor need to exactly define them for our purposes. As long as we roughly understand the implications.

Since you and TJ Kaniben are benefiting of the most common structure that operates, then I do not expect you to agree with what I am saying or the definition of those terms. This is natural since is in your best interest that no new arrangements are tried or proposed.

Lets first address the issue of founding an alliance. The mechanism by which an alliance is founded is irrelevant.
It is the decision making process of the individuals, the groups, and the representation what matters.

I disagree that democracy can not work in Grepolis. When I was in Thermopylae, and we won that server by a true landslide, I saw that many democratic principles were put in place organically and with spontaneity. It worked greatly because people in small groups were making great decisions about defensive and offensive operations without having leaders biases or egos in the way.

It is human nature. At the end, leaders in Grepolis end up doing what is best for them and not the entire group. For sure, they try to pretend or dress it up, but it is classic prinicipal-agent problem.

Currently in most alliances, very, few people are the ones that make the decisions about strategy, conquests, new memberships, election of council members and so on. Most people simply follow blindly what the leaders dictate, and in many aspects people are intimidated if they do not follow what they are told to execute. In some worlds, the outcome of the wars or the server comes down to the opinions of very few people.

Most alliances has fascist tendencies and yours more than any other one.
You yourself state: "democracy doesn't work"
This what Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Pinochet, and many other dictators believe. This is the essence of fascism. The suppression of individual decision making, self expression, the intolerance of dissent, and the denigration or exclusion of those who voice a different opinion.

I never heard of you asking questions to the rank and file. Asking for opinions. Having elections to see if new people should be making decisions, and allowing people to disagree. Even in the open forums, you are coming here and telling me that I am wrong and ignorant.

I firmly believe that it is possible to arrange alliances in a more democratic way where the autonomy of players is respected and encouraged.

you still haven't shown that you understand these terms. they don't have 'various' definitions. I'm not going to give the dignity of answering each of these absurd statements. none of what you are saying makes any sense. you have simply grabbed some keywords with a negative connotation and haphazardly spread them around statements that have no supporting evidence. you don't even know that you've never been in one of my alliances before, yet you pretend to know how i do or don't operate. it just goes to show that you are not paying attention and are really just rambling. you can't qualify any of this and you know it. its just propaganda so that maybe you can find someone as bitter as you to join your little spammer crew. what they don't know is that if they join, they are actually working for bloods, a coalition in itself. only this one doesn't know how to win, so they hire cheaters to try to help them.
 

1saaa

Phrourach
What do you mean?
currently last time i checked (which was about 10 seconds ago) you are in 110 golden maniacs inside the server Leontini. that alliance is arguably just as bad as Victrix (if not worse) and is equally deserving of the evil empire title. Why do YOU call for us to attack Victrix when your in a team that is just as bad.
 

MAC-9

Chiliarch
currently last time i checked (which was about 10 seconds ago) you are in 110 golden maniacs inside the server Leontini. that alliance is arguably just as bad as Victrix (if not worse) and is equally deserving of the evil empire title. Why do YOU call for us to attack Victrix when your in a team that is just as bad.
its because he doesn't actually stand for these principles. his masters have pushed him to try to cause any harm he can to their enemies. if he can find one ill informed person to believe him, he gets a cookie.
 

1saaa

Phrourach
its because he doesn't actually stand for these principles. his masters have pushed him to try to cause any harm he can to their enemies. if he can find one ill informed person to believe him, he gets a cookie.
he must have a lot of cookies...
 

FutbolTango

Banned
Banned
currently last time i checked (which was about 10 seconds ago) you are in 110 golden maniacs inside the server Leontini. that alliance is arguably just as bad as Victrix (if not worse) and is equally deserving of the evil empire title. Why do YOU call for us to attack Victrix when your in a team that is just as bad.
This will make it probable the most valid. If you check carefully. I have not conquered any city in weeks if not months.

I have to give them credit for not kicking me out. Eviction Notice was my original team, and I learnt a lot from them over the years. Erik and Kronnos invited me for all time sake.

I have seen and done things that I am not proud, including the forced betrayal of @Criki, for which I feel really awful and regret it.

I have fought for evil alliances. I have come to realize that we can try to create more democratic alliances where the power and decision making is not concentrated on only a few people.
 

LaSophie

Hipparchus
From personal experiences, anything democratic about alliances in Grepolis always end up in some sort of drama.
I prefer one strong, sound leader, than a council of morons who will block every rational decision. But it's the case of trusting that individual to lead. That person has to be really charismatic and smart.
 

MAC-9

Chiliarch
This will make it probable the most valid. If you check carefully. I have not conquered any city in weeks if not months.

I have to give them credit for not kicking me out. Eviction Notice was my original team, and I learnt a lot from them over the years. Erik and Kronnos invited me for all time sake.

I have seen and done things that I am not proud, including the forced betrayal of @Criki, for which I feel really awful and regret it.

I have fought for evil alliances. I have come to realize that we can try to create more democratic alliances where the power and decision making is not concentrated on only a few people.
the issues you are describing do not come from type of government. What you are looking for is the free market model of economy. grepo is a resource management and growth game. it is proven that a free and fair market creates wealth at a rate unmatched by any other model. grepo is set up in a free market style for all of us to navigate how we choose and are able. we band together in alliances to better our competitive advantage over our opponents. leaders regulate (or don't) the the free market for their people and direct the team to navigate the market as one entity. the best ones find a balance where everyone on their team can thrive and prosper more than other teams.

the way you describe your issues, it looks like you have been following leaders that don't have a grasp of their team or the markets around them and how to navigate them. this is a leadership style and poor decision making issue. it doesn't have anything to do with the structure of government. you need to follow better decision makers OR you should create your own wealth. people will follow the wealth. then you can experiment with democracy and show us why it works. your actions speak much louder than your words.
 

1saaa

Phrourach
This will make it probable the most valid. If you check carefully. I have not conquered any city in weeks if not months.

I have to give them credit for not kicking me out. Eviction Notice was my original team, and I learnt a lot from them over the years. Erik and Kronnos invited me for all time sake.

I have seen and done things that I am not proud, including the forced betrayal of @Criki, for which I feel really awful and regret it.

I have fought for evil alliances. I have come to realize that we can try to create more democratic alliances where the power and decision making is not concentrated on only a few people.
then what better way to atone yourself by leaving 110s and fighting against them?

my team supported Criki when we had less than 10 players. he last stand was an honourable one.
 

FutbolTango

Banned
Banned
Lets start with the issue of definitions. There are not exact definitions of those terms. For example, when it comes to fascism, I quote:

"Historians, political scientists and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[30] Each group described as fascist has at least some unique elements, and many definitions of fascism have been criticized as either too wide or narrow."


The same when it comes to democracy:

No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, political freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics.[11][12]


These are actually very difficult terms to define, delimit, discuss. It is not as simple as you think. People have written entire dissertations of merely some aspects of a definition.

However, we can roughly get the general idea.

You belief that democratic principles should not be present or articulated in an alliance, is a fine example of fascist thinking. The same for the tolerance of differences in opinion. You and your excellency TJ Kaniben do not tolerate or encourage freedom of expression and denigrate those who voice different opinions than yours.

I appreciate that you try to present Grepolis as a free market economy, but those days are long gone. Now it is more like Oligopolies running Cartels. Lets take an example, of Carystus.

Your Highness, TJ Kaniben and her court made a pact with Ra-Ceren and Harriden. Then Ra-Ceren and Harriden made a pact with the Toons. Essentially a small group of people halted warfare for more than 200 players. I had to break away to conduct warfare.

Yesterday, I put on revolt many cities of your excellency TJ Kaniben and had over 20,000 attacking points.
3 FutbolTango BLACK SAILS XX 20366

If I had to follow the directions, I would have had to sim and not many attacks. This is the problem that we have with allowing the concentration of decision making on the hands of a few people.

We can fight to create alliances and structures of decision making where the rank and file player has some input as supposed to let a handful of leaders decide the outcome of wars and the servers.
 

Itbered

Hekatontarch
You really don't understand strategy what was anyone suppose to do on either world what you think Vic and noc and wib haven't had a truce type of deal sure you have border skirmishes but no real open warring yet if anyone would of went to war it would have given the 3rd alliance that didn't the win and it is not anyone fault even other than the lack of any real lasting leadership outside of these groups
 

Raydium88

Phrourach
A democracy in grepo doesn't work. And never will. Sure, you can implement some democratic elements to appeal most of your members, as to allow some level of suggestion and opinion. Leaders, can overlook some details sometimes. I always made me leadership quite transparent and open, but there are many things that should stay in a council room, with a select short group of competent and trusty players ONLY (leaders).

You can't share the power around to everyone, that'd be a complete mess. For an alliance to run smoothly, your players need direction, and move as a unit. This can only be enforced effectively, in a sort of autocratic environment (pardon if I use terms lazily). But you get my point, in a true democracy, free for all, people will go all over the place, they won't respect allies and each other, because for once not everyone in your alliance is competent or has experience, or even common sense, tailored towards leadership and decision making... and even if they all did.......... would be a drama, soap opera, hair pull-inducing utter mess.
 
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MAC-9

Chiliarch
Lets start with the issue of definitions. There are not exact definitions of those terms. For example, when it comes to fascism, I quote:

"Historians, political scientists and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[30] Each group described as fascist has at least some unique elements, and many definitions of fascism have been criticized as either too wide or narrow."


The same when it comes to democracy:

No consensus exists on how to define democracy, but legal equality, political freedom and rule of law have been identified as important characteristics.[11][12]


These are actually very difficult terms to define, delimit, discuss. It is not as simple as you think. People have written entire dissertations of merely some aspects of a definition.

However, we can roughly get the general idea.

You belief that democratic principles should not be present or articulated in an alliance, is a fine example of fascist thinking. The same for the tolerance of differences in opinion. You and your excellency TJ Kaniben do not tolerate or encourage freedom of expression and denigrate those who voice different opinions than yours.

I appreciate that you try to present Grepolis as a free market economy, but those days are long gone. Now it is more like Oligopolies running Cartels. Lets take an example, of Carystus.

Your Highness, TJ Kaniben and her court made a pact with Ra-Ceren and Harriden. Then Ra-Ceren and Harriden made a pact with the Toons. Essentially a small group of people halted warfare for more than 200 players. I had to break away to conduct warfare.

Yesterday, I put on revolt many cities of your excellency TJ Kaniben and had over 20,000 attacking points.
3 FutbolTango BLACK SAILS XX 20366

If I had to follow the directions, I would have had to sim and not many attacks. This is the problem that we have with allowing the concentration of decision making on the hands of a few people.

We can fight to create alliances and structures of decision making where the rank and file player has some input as supposed to let a handful of leaders decide the outcome of wars and the servers.
this is factually incorrect.

providing an alternative to your thought process does not make an example of fascism. you still have not presented any actual evidence that suggests that any alliance is fascist. you are just taking the keywords from the definition presented and attaching them to our name. that is not evidence.

oligarchy is another type of government system, not an economic system. it just means that is a ruling class vs a working class and usually involves a corrupt nature. again you are just going from negative keyword to negative keyword without evidence and hoping one sticks.

we never made any pact with ra-ceren and im not sure who harriden is.

you got 20k abp against someone who is completely focused on building wonders? very impressive.


your ability to follow or not follow directions is a reflection on you more than it is on leaders' decisions. you keep skipping the fact that you are free to do what you like and at any time you can leave and find somewhere more suited to you or you can create it.

the only part you are coming close on is that a handful of leaders decide the outcome of servers. but it is never a guarantee. power and control plays a big part of the higher level of play and decides many outcomes. this is how the world works. but its not just one or a few people that force the outcome. Its a team game up and down. you can't just walk in off the street and start playing god of grepolis. you prove yourself to your peers and they will elevate you as high as you are worth and they 'blindly' follow because they believed in you enough to put you there. the better you show your leadership and prove effective, the higher caliber of player that will follow you and the greater the potential that you get the outcome you desire.

your understanding of how leadership works is backwards. this is why you fail.
 

TJ Kaniben

Hipparchus
I think we all see the hypocrisy here. Your claims have no credibility while you continue to play in Golden on 110. And you just switched from Infidels to Maniacs there of your own free will, so don’t tell me you aren’t active or interested there. Unless perhaps you are just spying?

And by the way, it takes a special kind of player to claim a victory playing in a dead world after the winners finished 8 months ago. Is that the kind of victory and fun you offer to those who would follow your path?
 

FutbolTango

Banned
Banned
One guys.....it seems that I have stroke a chord here...

With respect to her Excellency, TJ Kaniben,

Am I supposed to stop playing just because this is your mandate?
The world is active and many of us are having a lot of fun. We are having battles, trying new things. We are having a good time.

Are we supposed to abandon the game just because you say so, your Majesty?
By the way, I must say that I enjoyed very much pillaging and raiding your cities. I do not get over 60 Victory Processions, so thank you for those yummy points.

This is in a nutshell the point that I am trying to make. A few people are making decisions over others and we are supposed to blindly bow our heads and follow your mandates.

As for our ideologues, @Raydium88 and @MAC-9, or most accurately, the demagogues of the fascist and dictatorial style of government, there are examples in the history of Grepolis where alliances have worked well or have been attempts to establish democratic and autonomous structures of decision making. Thermopylae is a great example of this, and will leave for ever as shining proof that it can be done.

The alliance had no pacts and defensive and offensive operations were run with a lot of autonomy. Of course, there were no pacts.

guys...you do not realize the irony? we are playing a game that has as a theme Ancient Greece...the birthplace of democracy and you guys are arguing and trying to keep dictatorships and the rule of the minority over the majority.
The ancient Greeks defeated many organized and autocratic armies. It can be done. This is what some of us are trying to revive and keep alive here in Grepolis. We are trying to establish something where the power is not concentrated in a few oligarchs or aristocrats.

Our democracies started with a simple and elegant arrangement. One white pebble for "yes" and one black pebble for "no".
There is no reason for us to be able to run alliances with this simple way of government in our alliances, where "leaders" do not feel superior to the rank and file.
 

Itbered

Hekatontarch
You are attempting to say we shouldn't follow the leaders of the alliances we choose to join that like going to work and telling your bosses your just going to sit down all day it won't work out long for you we like our leaders that why we continue to follow them it's you who don't like things and that because your always losing and you always will be because you don't really understand winning just warring anyone and everyone until every troop you have is gone then you try to blame people and point fingers
 

FutbolTango

Banned
Banned
You are attempting to say we shouldn't follow the leaders of the alliances we choose to join that like going to work and telling your bosses your just going to sit down all day it won't work out long for you we like our leaders that why we continue to follow them it's you who don't like things and that because your always losing and you always will be because you don't really understand winning just warring anyone and everyone until every troop you have is gone then you try to blame people and point fingers
I had some challenge ready your last sentence. Yes, precisely, many people go to work and follow blindly what their bosses tell them to do. This is unfortunate. However, there are places where workers or members have a say in the way the organization or business is run.

I understand that many people like to be told what to do. This is fine. However, it is worth trying to have alliances that try to follow democratic principles and players have more autonomy and say in the way the alliance is run or the direction of the alliance.