Ares God of war

[DeletedUser57570]

Can we get Ares as a God and..... heres some ideas for myths / spells - i did a little research and found a few things that were interesting

Since he is the God of war for Myths give 2 great attacking myths like..

Amazonian (hes their father) Make them 5-10 population each and like 25 favor each plus 500 each resource since they need armor and weapons.
For attack make them blunt attack like 4-500, then have them equal on defence 250-300 on all

Phoenix - very slow but effective flier. no defensive values at all. Ranged attack (fireball) Costing 200 population 5000 woog, 7500 stone and 10,000 silver; plus 400 favor these expensive birds only offer 5000 ranged attack each. though the weakest of the fliers total population 1 can do much damage. if all defending units are destroyed up to 30% of the lost Phoenix rise from the ashes.

Ares Spells - as god of war he grants

Birds eye view - Ares vulture flies through the enemy city reporting on the largest number of troops or ships in the city. (100 favor)
Ares rage - all troops or ships attacking are granted 5-10% attack bonus (240 favor)
Ares Blessing - Cost of myths (Favor and resources) is 10-20% less or 10-20% faster myth recruitment for 1 hour (150 favor)
Ares defense - Ares reveals himself to the attacking units and 20-30% of all units turn around return to the city they were sent from(400 Favor)

Just a couple of ideas

 

[DeletedUser54192]

(Part 1: Because apparently you can't write a post of more than 10,000 characters.)

It's always nice to see interesting ideas on the forum. New gods are unlikely to be implemented (as much as more sounds nice, the 6 current gods are only roughly balanced at the moment), but they are certainly interesting to suggest and discuss. In the interest of getting some conversation going, I'll do a bit of analysis on the suggested myths/spells.

Amazonian:

	Amazonian	Erinyes	Pegasus	Cerberus	Centaur	Boar
Att/pop.	40-100	30.9	-	-	-	-
Def/pop.	75-180	-	65	90	71.6	75
Fav/pop.	5-2.5	6	6	6	5.83	6

• Even the minimum attack/population value of an Amazonian (400 attack, 10 population) is almost 33% stronger than an Erinyes (the strongest non-flyer attacking land unit). At maximum, it's almost triple the att/pop. of an Erinyes.
• Calculating def/pop. as the sum of all defence types, divided by the population cost, even the weakest suggested form of the Amazonian is a better defender than 3 of the 4 best defence myths. At strongest, it is twice as good as even the Cerberus. The approximately equal defence across all unit types gives an additional advantage, as it does not have to be paired with standard DLU to cover weaknesses (other defensive myths have to be paired with DLU to cover weaknesses, which reduces the def/pop efficiency overall).
• The favour/population cost of all god-specific mythical units is around 6. (Divine Envoys have a fav/pop. value of 4, but are weaker in attack or defence than even standard OLU/DLU, and are therefore only useful for favour-farming.) So the Amazonian ranges from a little cheaper than every other combat myth, all the way to less than half the cost of any other combat myth.

To summarise, the Amazonian is overpowered. Even at it's weakest, it would be the strongest attacking land unit in the game as well as one of the strongest defending units, while costing less favour. Hybrid units usually pay for their dual role with decreased efficiency at each role (as demonstrated by hoplites, medusae, minotaurs and triremes) when compared to specialists.

Phoenix:

	Phoenix	Harpy	Manticore	Griffin
Att/pop.	25	21.1	22.4	25.7
Fav/pop.	2	6.07	6	6.57

• "Only" offering 5000 attack each still makes the Phoenix a better attacker than harpies or manticores, and only marginally behind a griffin. Definitely not the "weakest of the fliers". As a ranged unit, it would benefit from Aim of the Huntress, making it more powerful than a Griffin.
• The Phoenix has an extremely low favour/population value, lower than even the Amazonian, standing at a third of the standard fav/pop cost for mythical units.
• Special abilities for mythical units are an interesting idea (I've seen and discussed this sort of thing in the past, specifically the idea to give Cyclopes a minor catapult-like effect to make them a more worthwhile mythical unit). 30% puts it at triple the effect of the "Return from the Underworld spell" (which costs as much as 1 Phoenix), but with a conditional clause that would seemingly guarantee that it will never take effect. (Even a single naval unit would nullify the effect, and this would be common, especially on conquest worlds where fliers are usually reserved for siege breaks.)

To summarise, the Phoenix is a strong flier with a significant advantage when it comes to favour cost. The special ability seems both underpowered and overpowered at the same time: if it takes effect, it is much more powerful than the spell it mimics, but it seems very unlikely to ever take effect. The 0 defensive value seems like an attempt to balance out the obvious advantages of the unit, but is of questionable relevance - in the age of alarms, catching a flyer nuke on the defensive is rare. And if you do catch one, you're probably going to kill it anyways. (Although the fact that this makes a Phoenix nuke simply vanish against a harbour check seems like a recipe for extreme anger when the attack alarms inevitably break after each game update.) Despite saying that the flier is slow, no speed value is actually given. Overall, an unbalanced unit that doesn't feel checked-through, but seemingly not overpowered in the same way as the Amazonian is.

 

[DeletedUser54192]

(Part 2: Because apparently you can't write a post of more than 10,000 characters.)

Bird's Eye View:

• Slightly unclear on the mechanics here, which would play a major part in determining its balance. If it tells you what type of troop is most numerous, then it probably isn't too powerful. If it tells you the quantity of that troop type, it becomes noticeably more powerful (identifying city speciality, the type of defence being used on revolt, or giving an estimate of the amount of support in a siege on CQ).
• While it costs favour rather than normal resources, if gives an instant report, it seems noticeably more powerful than a spy report in some circumstances: instant information that completely bypasses any silver in the target city's cave, and presumably wouldn't trigger a report from an Oracle as it isn't strictly an espionage attempt.

Overall, hard to gauge without more detail on the mechanics. It could be generally weak, or it could be very strong in specific situations.

Ares' Rage:

• This spell seems a little powerful, but not to the same extent as the mythical units, and is heavily dependent on the attacking bonus assigned. At a 10% combat boost, it becomes a cheaper replacement for Favourable Wind.
• Anywhere between 5-10%, it's less cost-effective than Heroic Power, with the advantage being if an LS+OLU or LS+Flyer attack is going to hit combined defence (although only if naval defence is small, in the cast of LS+OLU).

Overall, dependent on the combat boost assigned. If 10%, the favour cost ought to be increased slightly, simply to stop it becoming a better version of Favourable Wind. If a lower percentage, it is probably balanced as it is. (The benefit of covering all units is countered by the lower percentage than either of the other spells, and by the game's combat system placing an emphasis on stronger individual attacks.) Given that there is a permanent token with almost this exact effect (just 1-10% stackable) which was presumably the inspiration for this spell, a different name would likely be a good idea.

Ares' Blessing:

• The cost-reduction variant is a tough call on balance. At 20%, and combined with favour-farming, it's basically free favour. (You save 98 favour on a full batch of DLU [assuming 500 favour capacity], or 85 favour on a batch of 5 harpies, so one full favour farming run would basically leave you ahead on favour.) At 10%, it would be less of a concern outside of Heracles favour-farming. The idea that you use favour to effectively get more favour with a different god is an interesting one - the developers actually blocked the previous mechanic for doing this (recruiting Divine Envoys, switching gods, then cancelling the recruitment) to stop people switching favour, so this could theoretically fall under a similar remit.
• The time-reduction variant is severely underpowered. Population Growth includes the recruitment of mythical unit, increasing the recruitment speed by 100% for only 80 favour.

The time-reduction variant is critically underpowered. The cost-reduction variant may be overpowered at 20%, but reasonable at 10%, depending on estimates of how much favour could be accumulated through favour farming in the duration of the spell.

Ares' Defence:

• Interesting concept but potentially on the powerful side (dependent on viable target units). It costs more than either Sea Storm or Zeus' Rage, but doubles the minimum impact and covers both land and naval units. (Making it particularly useful against CS packages or escorted OLU.)
• If CSs are viable, this becomes rather powerful. Covering both land and naval units, along with a higher minimum percentage means that the effect is much more likely to be over 170 population (allowing it to return the CS). If transports were included in the calculation, it raises the impact further, and presumably the algorithm would have to factor in troops that are returned if their transport is returned. The selection algorithm for land vs naval units could also impact the power. (If there was a chance of an OLU nuke's entire LS escort being wiped out, that makes it very powerful, whereas keeping it to approximately 20-30% of each of land and naval would be more balanced.)

Overall, an interesting spell, with balance heavily dependent on the viable units and the selection algorithm for which units are returned. If CSs are included, then possibly overpowered against CS packages. Weaker against pure LS, pure fliers, or overland OLU attacks.


Summary:

• The Amazon is basically overpowered. The strong attack and excessively cheap fav/pop. value of the Phoenix aren't exactly cancelled out by the undefined slow speed and the lack of a defence. The Phoenix's special ability seems hit-and-miss: a little too powerful when it works, but unlikely to work the majority of the time (particularly in the mid/late-game).
• The balance of Bird's Eye View and Ares' Defence are heavily dependent on currently-absent details about the spell mechanics. Ares' Blessing seems slightly overpowered in the former variant, and practically useless in the latter variant. Ares' Rage is the simplest of the spells, and could be balanced by a slight increase in favour cost and/or using the lower values for the attack boost, but would be a simply superior version of Favourable Wind in its current state.

It's always great to see new ideas. This might be harsh, but I thought it was worth giving a detailed analysis and comparison with existing myths/spells, as opposed to a "this good" or "this bad" post that would be unlikely to spark conversation. They key is balance, really - it sounds fun to dream up a super-unit that can outclass the majority of other units in the game, but in reality it would lead to a tactical monoculture. The Grepolis wiki has a helpful table of units with all their important values (Grepolis Wiki - Units), which can help when trying to balance out new unit ideas.

 

[Lethal-Bacon]

a new god might just spice up some things

 

[Darth Akula]

I believe Ares is LONG overdue as a deity. And he'd make a perfect next one and the Devs could call it at 7 (Number of complete-ness). Ares is supposed to be "of war" (i.e. fighting/aggressive/offensive) so the pitch above seems great. Only "change" I'd give for input is during the last spell of "Ares Defense", that number of units doesn't return home as in we'd see it in our overview and would have TT back home, vs they just "appear" back home, similar to Hades underworld spell thing where a % comes "back from the dead".

And if you (Devs/Mods) are a little dicey on the idea - make it an event thing where the reward is Ares is unlocked and you get certain bonuses from completing the quest or whatever. But can rerun it if you wanted for other prizes. So, make it an event where people would buy and use gold on it too to earn some quick cash from it.

 

[DeletedUser57570]

these were just all suggestions and the effects / costs of units is something that would need to be refined tobalance thm out with other gods / myths / spells. but in any event its a fun discussion

 

[DeletedUser54192]

@SharkIsHere. Balancing is a difficult act, I agree, and it's fun to get the discussion going. (And it will be interesting to see how any new myths/spells are balanced, if the hints are accurate and a new God is being introduced to the game.) I'd just say it's worth doing even a quick check against other myths at the start, as it is more likely to result in interesting discussion, rather than people screaming "overpowered!" (or underpowered) like has been seen occasionally on this forum.

@Darth Akula. While introducing a new god would be tricky in terms of how (unless you just restrict it to new worlds), I'm not sure an event is the way to go, especially if it happens right at the start of the world - players who join later would be unable to access that god, causing a bit of a general balance issue, and a much more significant issue for World Wonders with favour contribution. I like the idea of adding Ares, and believe that if they introduced several more gods, it may be a good idea to include him, but I'd worry about overlap or mythological accuracy: Athena represents strategy, and is therefore a good fit in a large-scale game such as Grepolis. Ares is more about violence, personal combat, etc, that isn't directly portrayed in Grepolis, meaning that it would be harder to include spells that are a good representation of his character, and don't overlap with the existing pure combat boost spells. (If Ares was part of the game's initial pantheon, I would have said that Heroic Power makes more sense for Ares than Athena, for example.)

 

[DeletedUser57570]

Yeah would definately have to be restricted to new worlds.... introducing a new god in the middle of an ongoing world would be wierd... everyone would be trying out the new god fairly quickly

 

[DeletedUser57494]

Can we get Ares as a God and..... heres some ideas for myths / spells - i did a little research and found a few things that were interesting

Since he is the God of war for Myths give 2 great attacking myths like..

Amazonian (hes their father) Make them 5-10 population each and like 25 favor each plus 500 each resource since they need armor and weapons.
For attack make them blunt attack like 4-500, then have them equal on defence 250-300 on all

Phoenix - very slow but effective flier. no defensive values at all. Ranged attack (fireball) Costing 200 population 5000 woog, 7500 stone and 10,000 silver; plus 400 favor these expensive birds only offer 5000 ranged attack each. though the weakest of the fliers total population 1 can do much damage. if all defending units are destroyed up to 30% of the lost Phoenix rise from the ashes.

Ares Spells - as god of war he grants

Birds eye view - Ares vulture flies through the enemy city reporting on the largest number of troops or ships in the city. (100 favor)
Ares rage - all troops or ships attacking are granted 5-10% attack bonus (240 favor)
Ares Blessing - Cost of myths (Favor and resources) is 10-20% less or 10-20% faster myth recruitment for 1 hour (150 favor)
Ares defense - Ares reveals himself to the attacking units and 20-30% of all units turn around return to the city they were sent from(400 Favor)

Just a couple of ideas

Thank you for the suggestion. I always wanted to play in a world where the selection of Gods for that world would be limited or certain Gods would only be available in certain oceans. I like your additional God. The Gods never favour armies in a fair manner. They would pick sides, so this would do the game more interesting. I really enjoyed reading your suggestion.