Proposal Balancing DLU vs Myth event tokens

Shuri2060

Phrourach
Proposal:

Balance DLU tokens against Myth tokens in events.

imo the largest DLU tokens should be at least as big as Myth tokens in terms of population and they should have similar/faster spawn rate.

On a less important note, I would also suggest matching Bir/LS token pop with Myth ones as well. Those are very underwhelming atm (even more so due to Nereids tokens).

Reason:

This would help fix the myth imbalance brought about by events without taking away the gold spending aspect of them.

More details:

I say 'at least' because Myths average more atk/unit than DLU average avg def/unit.

It should be noted size/speed of tokens are much bigger factors than cost. You can fit a lot more Myth nukes in your inventory than DLU nukes. Myth tokens run very quickly compared to DLU, cutting down on a lot of rebuild time.

To properly balance, I think DLU token size (and/or cost) should be different in CQ and Revolt events. Walls make a big difference to their value.

In fact, I would encourage Inno to attempt overbalancing DLU for a few events to see what happens. Heavy golders are in the habit of stocking Myths already - I'd be interested to see if many change their tactics if they realise there is more value in DLU.
 
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Darth Akula

Lochagos
I say big no because the whole point of a myth is to have a "killer" unit. I.e., "Hard" to build but does a LOT of damage and has many perks normal units wouldn't have. It's like saying you want a Dragon to have a 1:1 stat ratio with a regular average knight. No way. Myths need to stay "legendary". Regular units, and dlu for that mater are way easier to produce than any myth. All this idea would bring about is the pointlessness of all myths (essentially) and the game see far less built and way more turtles in the game. And since LMD is no longer a thing, this puts even more "desire" to turtle for people. Bad idea imo
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
I say big no because the whole point of a myth is to have a "killer" unit. I.e., "Hard" to build but does a LOT of damage and has many perks normal units wouldn't have. It's like saying you want a Dragon to have a 1:1 stat ratio with a regular average knight. No way. Myths need to stay "legendary". Regular units, and dlu for that mater are way easier to produce than any myth. All this idea would bring about is the pointlessness of all myths (essentially) and the game see far less built and way more turtles in the game. And since LMD is no longer a thing, this puts even more "desire" to turtle for people. Bad idea imo
I think you have it the wrong way round.

The 'hard to build' aspect is all but lost when considering event myths. That's exactly the reason why this balance issue comes up. Easily replaced myth nukes break fully stacked sieges.

Morale sieges actually balance against Myth units in general.

That's why you need much more DEF in non-morale sieges.
 

DeletedUser41523

Guest
This is usually already balanced in most events (emphasis on most). The difference being that the cost in pop is similar to the price you'd pay in an event shop such as with the Hen its easier to make DLU tokens over myth tokens. People just tend to ignore the DLU tokens for the sexier option.
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
This is usually already balanced in most events (emphasis on most). The difference being that the cost in pop is similar to the price you'd pay in an event shop such as with the Hen its easier to make DLU tokens over myth tokens. People just tend to ignore the DLU tokens for the sexier option.
The pop of DLU tokens is usually (if not always) much less than Myth tokens.

The cost isn't so much of an issue as size - lack of inventory space means you would choose to stock up on myths at the end of the event. Pop/hr is also an issue - the myth tokens run very quickly compared to DLU tokens.

Also, I believe to truly balance, DLU tokens should be at least 1.5x the size of the Myth ones. 1 DLU token should have equal power to 1 Myth token on average to balance OFF and DEF.

Why do people choose the Myth tokens over DLU ones and complain about them in events? I don't think it's a minority we're talking about here, and I don't think it's just because people are going for the 'sexier' option. Myths are being picked over DLU a lot because they hold more value.

The surge in easily replacable event Myths should be balanced by equally replacable DLU imo.

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2x or 3x pop with equal speed would be a good start to see what happens, I think, then the devs can go from there, adjusting the value each event (according to the spending ratio from the last event).
 
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1saaa

Strategos
For people like me stacking up on myth tokens is a necessity. I can only get flyer nukes around events. On the other hand I can get a solid chunk of dlu whenever I like.

For the mythical hen event dlu tokens are much easier to get. This means that you can in theory balance out extreme number of myths during the event with a similar number of dlu.

Of course after the event this becomes much harder.

One thing that could help dlu tokens in general would be adding a mixed token. Where every hour you get a set number of archers, swords and hops.

This may reduce the burden on inventory space.

I'm not sure how adding such a powerful dlu producing feature would work out balancing wise though.
 

DeletedUser41523

Guest
But even on a perfect balance I will still pick myth tokens at the end of an event. They're pound for pound the best BP producer and are much more difficult to replace than DLU. I can start replacing DLU by multiple cities at a time. I can only replace mantis, harps, and griffs in one city each at a time. So it makes sense to pick the thing that isn't as easy to build and can produce large amounts of BP in a single hit.
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
Exactly. What you both say points towards the same thing - Myth tokens will be your choice because you feel they have the best value.

You (and most other players) feel Myth tokens hold more value than DLU tokens in events and that suggest an imbalance.

To me, balancing token value makes the game more interesting as it increases strategy - there would be more variety to choose from without compromising your play. Right now people pick myths tokens because it is quite obvious they have the best value. On the other hand, if Inno tried making the biggest DLU tokens 2x/3x pop and same speed as the Myth tokens, this might not be true. Players might consider stocking up on DLU more than myths.

There will be a point at which more players start to pick DLU over Myth tokens - and that is the equilibrium point in terms of balance. This isn't necessarily constant (will vary depending on world settings, ally tactics, etc) but right now we're not even close to that point yet. Myth tokens clearly overpower DLU tokens by a large margin - more pop/token, faster tokens, more resource value, scarcity of Myths.

Note I don't necessarily mean making DLU tokens 5k pop/token if Myths were 2.5k pop in a certain speed. It is the ratio between the 2 that matters, and perhaps scaling down Myth tokens is necessary instead if DLU tokens would be way too big.
 
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Hydna

Grepolis Team
Inno have reduced the strength of myth tokens available in comps over the last year or so which was intended to help with inequalities. I understand what you are saying here and certainly if the whole community feel strongly we can pass on the suggestion of a 'super dlu token' but in reality DLU is relatively cheap and easy to build at any time.

You need to all consider the downsides here also - if theres a super dlu then some other valuable token would be lost in exchange - would u be happy to lose a myth option in exchange? Competitions are balanced so there are only so many of each value on offer.


Suggestions need to be fully discussed and looked at from all angles before we can take them forward.
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
Inno have reduced the strength of myth tokens available in comps over the last year or so which was intended to help with inequalities. I understand what you are saying here and certainly if the whole community feel strongly we can pass on the suggestion of a 'super dlu token' but in reality DLU is relatively cheap and easy to build at any time.

You need to all consider the downsides here also - if theres a super dlu then some other valuable token would be lost in exchange - would u be happy to lose a myth option in exchange? Competitions are balanced so there are only so many of each value on offer.


Suggestions need to be fully discussed and looked at from all angles before we can take them forward.
I think event statistics should be looked into to determine whether the balances were enough. If the majority of spending is still focused toward Myth tokens (and I believe it is), then it surely isn't enough. Even when there isn't a direct exchange/shop (like the current Hades vs Sparta event), statistics like total dead units/stage can be looked into.

I think an indication of good balance is if players are spending roughly the same gold (/equivalent of gold) for the available options.

I'm not saying we should shut down Myth tokens - I'm saying the other options should be brought to the same value to create diversity in choice (without making bad plays in doing so). It is like a meta. I was suggesting to overbalance DLU at first to see the effect - I feel even then players would tend to overvalue Myth tokens.

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In the end, I don't see reason not to try experimenting with event balance. It shouldn't affect Gold spending that much (unless the balance is very badly done). In fact, a more balanced event will probably encourage Gold spending more. There is no difficulty in changing token size/speed - the difficulty is in figuring out a balance, but experimentation can help overcome that.

Right now Inventory space limits how many myths players can stock up on. There is no need to buy more if their nukes aren't dying. However, if DLU tokens could replace defence just as quickly as myths, that would encourage a spending war on both sides. I speak from a CQ perspective as I think there is more of an imbalance there - atm there is not much of a war as allies generally tend to hold fewer sieges during events as they need to fully stack them and it takes them a while to fully rebuild after a break.

Something else that might be interesting is changing the balance for each event - maybe one favors myths slightly more, then DLU, LS, birs, etc. This increases skill/strategy required to determine what is the best option.
 
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Lethal-Bacon

Strategos
Both what shuri and dan said is correct, partly at least, yes majority of events nerfed myth tokens by reducing number of hours those tokens are active, however 1 hour or 2 hours of manty or griff token is still more population used than any dlu token, you can pop spend more event currency/focus to getting more dlu tokens to balance it out, however majority of people as dan said go for manti/2x bp tokens and then tend to feel the unfair overpowered myth effect due to lack of dlu when trying to siege someone willing to use myth on the siege, changing pop values for dlu tokens or adding new super dlu tokens in my opinion wont fix this issue because events are really really tightly grouped these days and majority of people have most of their inventory stacked with myth until next event and no one bothers with dlu tokens, problem here is the mentality of people rather than the way units are balanced at this time.
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
You can change mentality by attempting balance.

There WILL be some point at which DLU is chosen over myths. To give an extreme example, if DLU tokens had 20x pop than myth tokens players would surely choose DLU. This would be an extreme overbalance - but it shows that there is probably some point between 1x and 20x which is the point of equilibrium. What I'm getting at is that this point does exist (even if it isn't necessarily constant) and it would be beneficial to try getting as close as possible.

I'm going to guess it's between 2-3x pop, in reality. I don't understand the mentality behind not even attempting to balance just because we think 'it won't do anything, people will still pick myths anyway'. That's not true - there actually is a point of balance, and it is up to the devs to find it. Players who continue to choose myths even when DLU is being overbalanced are making a misplay (better players won't make that mistake).

I see little difference between this and balancing problems in other games.

To be clear, the balance I'm referring to is theoretical balance where both DLU and Myth tokens have the same value - it is no better picking one over the other on average. This value would take into account token pop, speed, cost as well as other factors like inventory space, value of myths outside events (hard/expensive to build), etc. Because it takes into account so many variables, it is hard to find this balance, but it exists, nevertheless.

It is also important to note there is a difference between theoretical and empirical balance. The optimal player will play according to the theoretical balance, while the average player will play according to the empirical balance. The statistics will indicate the empirical balance, but ideally a game wants to be theoretically balanced. Even so, these should be pretty close and atm I don't think events are anywhere near either of these balances, especially in CQ.
 
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ukcolonist

Hipparchus
I say big no because the whole point of a myth is to have a "killer" unit. I.e., "Hard" to build but does a LOT of damage and has many perks normal units wouldn't have. It's like saying you want a Dragon to have a 1:1 stat ratio with a regular average knight. No way. Myths need to stay "legendary". Regular units, and dlu for that mater are way easier to produce than any myth. All this idea would bring about is the pointlessness of all myths (essentially) and the game see far less built and way more turtles in the game. And since LMD is no longer a thing, this puts even more "desire" to turtle for people. Bad idea imo
Yeah... they arent saying make myths equal to dlu, they are saming make the tokens equal to the same pop. So you get 700 pop of griffins you get 700 pop of dlu, which seems fair, at the moment its impossible to hold a siege during an event if the other alliance are gold users. Myths have an advantage over dlu already in that they are more pop efficient, there for its silly you also get even more pop of them
 

DeletedUser38766

Guest
How about eliminating myth tokens entirely? Just pure favor farming or Heracles using strategy? Also maybe instead of myth tokens to introduce few new heroes:

For example hero that produces more favor or hero that reduces cost and favor to build Myths?

Just some not well thought ideas :)
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
How about eliminating myth tokens entirely? Just pure favor farming or Heracles using strategy? Also maybe instead of myth tokens to introduce few new heroes:

For example hero that produces more favor or hero that reduces cost and favor to build Myths?

Just some not well thought ideas :)
That is too large a change to implement and will affect event spending a lot. A lot of players like Myth tokens. That doesn't mean they aren't unbalanced, though.

It is better to balance other tokens instead - that will have less impact on spending (or even a positive impact).
 

DeletedUser41523

Guest
They’re not imbalanced because of the population though. They’re imbalanced because it’s way more difficult to build a full myth nuke than a DLU nuke. If I’m hyper focused I can usually queue up all the DLU I need in a couple days time. that’s not accounting for heroes or pass pop.

If I’m hyper focused it’ll still take more time to get myth nukes.
 

Shuri2060

Phrourach
They’re not imbalanced because of the population though. They’re imbalanced because it’s way more difficult to build a full myth nuke than a DLU nuke. If I’m hyper focused I can usually queue up all the DLU I need in a couple days time. that’s not accounting for heroes or pass pop.

If I’m hyper focused it’ll still take more time to get myth nukes.

The population is definitely a factor in balance. Taking the biggest tokens from the current event (numbers might be different depending on your speed + total pts, but should just scale), guess which token I'd pick to fill my inventory with?

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The resource value (equivalent res+favor+time of the units) of the token is of course something else that contributes to the token's value.

If that Hoplite token was 600 Hoplite/hr for 5 hrs (= 3000 pop) and the Erinyes token was 4 Erinyes/hr for 5 hrs (= 1100 pop) I might change my mind. Even if I end up thinking Erinys are better to fill my inventory with, I WOULD consider the hoplites - each token has its merits. DLU are weaker/easier to normally rebuild but more pop compared to Myths. An example of a possible balance attempt (in this case, possibly an overbalance for DLU).
 
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