Pnp Boneheaded Betrayal

[DeletedUser54052]

Recently Mummy has been hearing the same thing over and over again from The Exiles camp – people have been desperate to join us. And all have given the same reason – poor leadership. Well actually most of them use much harsher words than “poor”, but Mummy doesn’t like naughty words. Mummy has said over and over again that she’s sure the leadership can’t be THAT bad, she knows some of them are pretty good, and that anyway it wouldn’t be very friendly to take in people from a pacted alliance – Mummy is very strict on the idea that pacts should be respected in spirit as well as letter of the law. But some of them were very insistent that the leadership really was terrible and that they really wanted to come to Mummy’s house to live – even if it meant giving up positions of responsibility like blackboard monitor or leader.

We also noticed that the Exiles seemed to be getting a bit sneaky, and taking our known targets. And not being nice girls and boys about it afterwards – Mummy was thinking very much of the naughty step for some of them, she really doesn’t like disrespect and some are way too Flash for their own good or that of their alliance. Mummy also doesn’t like people who call other people names, even their enemies; that’s not just naughty, it’s completely Nutz. Mummy was quite shocked that that wasn’t dealt with internally before it was too late.

And then, to cap it all, we found out that our so-called pact allies weren’t really our friends at all, and were actually wanting to attack us, probably jealous of Mummy’s apple pies or spam fritters.

Mummy really is quite cross, and has already counted to three – she’s now about to raise her voice. Not good news for The Exiles at all, nobody wants to get on the wrong side of Mummy. Well, nobody except:






Those “frankly annoying tactics” being to actually keep to pacts, it seems…

So it’s clear that we’re in the presence of a strategic genius in Jimbobicus. Remarkably smart to chase away your best players. Very intelligent to unnecessarily upset your allies. But above all, absolute genius to try to get your enemy to join with you to fight your friends – when your enemy is also a friend of your friends, and has the honour you so conspicuously lack.

Some people think underhand dealing and backstabbing is the way to success in this game, but in Mummy’s experience, that’s far from the truth; that tends to be the way of noob leaders. If you break pacts, word gets round and you’re quickly a pariah that nobody will deal with except in desperation, and even then, very unwillingly – and not just in current worlds. It’s never a good idea to suggest to someone that you and they both break a pact with a third party and attack them – how can you possibly be trusted in such circumstances? The very suggestion proves you to be completely lacking in honour and trustworthiness – the keystones of alliances. Certainly Mummy gets very cross with children who break their promises, and punishment is going to be far worse than a smacked bottom and straight to bed – I would expect the offenders to be grounded. Permanently. On the rim.

Leadership completely lacking in integrity, honour, strategic awareness, judgement, motivation and, well, any other aspect of leadership ability – that’s what you have in The Exiles. Takes a special kind of stupid to engineer such a terrible position from one of such strength. In the interest of a fun war, Mummy really hopes that the members are better than the leadership, or it will be a very short war indeed.

 

[DeletedUser46391]

Well said bud.

I'm extreemly dissapointed in them but Some people are just like that I guess.

 

[DeletedUser36031]

Well,, Exiles showes their true face - backstabbing and dishonour is not the way to play the game, but thats my 5 cents...

 

[DeletedUser52512]

Hi Richard Thrust and Odysseus,

Firstly, I apologise for what you deem as a betrayal. Although I'd like to point out that I'm not Exiles diplo - Miklann is. And if you were in my position, as a member of Exiles, I expect you would be exploring options too.

Secondly, you may look to shame me with posting my messages - but who's the real sneak here... the person who sends the messages or the person who leaks them? It saddens me that Hoplite Nuke should leak my messages and it saddens me further that you should post them here. If I wanted to get my own back, I could leak messages from other members of Mayhem. But I won't. I actually believe in playing with a bit more honour and decency than that.

Thirdly, there's no need for this animosity and grand-standing. I don't feel any particular animosity towards you. In fact I concede you have played a very, very clever game. You have let Exiles and Mayhem fight it out while you guys in Mummy go away and dominate the world without any real opposition. It's a very good strategy. Although in my personal opinion, I'd prefer to see the game won and lost on military expertise rather than clever diplomacy and poaching other people's players.

Fourthly, if you had a problem with me, why not contact me personally rather than look to shame me by posting here and sending an MM round?

Jim

 

[DeletedUser54052]

Secondly, you may look to shame me with posting my messages - but who's the real sneak here... the person who sends the messages or the person who leaks them?

The person who sends them, without doubt. You were our pact partner. HN was our pact partner. He behaved honourably as a pact partner, you acted completely dishonourably.

So who's the real sneak? You, you, you. How could it possibly be anyone else? You've let us down, of course, but you've really let your own alliance down with your dishonesty.

I actually believe in playing with a bit more honour and decency than that.

Pardon us for not believing that on the evidence we have of treachery.

Fourthly, if you had a problem with me, why not contact me personally rather than look to shame me by posting here and sending an MM round?

With your track record for deceit? I don't think so. You've shamed yourself with your backstabbing.

In fact I concede you have played a very, very clever game. You have let Exiles and Mayhem fight it out while you guys in Mummy go away and dominate the world without any real opposition. It's a very good strategy. Although in my personal opinion, I'd prefer to see the game won and lost on military expertise rather than clever diplomacy and poaching other people's players.

This is always the toughie for a fundamentally dishonest person to understand - the fact that you haven't understood it really proves you're not someone we could do business with.
A pact is a pact. We don't break pacts. So having pacted you and Mayhem very early on, it's not a case of us trying to play you off, or any such thing - it's simply a matter of honour. We keep our pacts, it's important to us. You don't, which says everything about you.
As to poaching players, we haven't; in fact as I said in the original post, we've tried to discourage them from leaving you. However, you personally have driven them away - they don't feel they can play with someone like you. Hard to argue with that, given how you've shown yourself. But in my experience, most Grepo players are fundamentally decent, so it's only fair to give your players a chance to play with people like them, instead of the alternative you offer.

 

[DeletedUser46391]

Hi Richard Thrust and Odysseus,

Firstly, I apologise for what you deem as a betrayal. Although I'd like to point out that I'm not Exiles diplo - Miklann is. And if you were in my position, as a member of Exiles, I expect you would be exploring options too.

Secondly, you may look to shame me with posting my messages - but who's the real sneak here... the person who sends the messages or the person who leaks them? It saddens me that Hoplite Nuke should leak my messages and it saddens me further that you should post them here. If I wanted to get my own back, I could leak messages from other members of Mayhem. But I won't. I actually believe in playing with a bit more honour and decency than that.

Thirdly, there's no need for this animosity and grand-standing. I don't feel any particular animosity towards you. In fact I concede you have played a very, very clever game. You have let Exiles and Mayhem fight it out while you guys in Mummy go away and dominate the world without any real opposition. It's a very good strategy. Although in my personal opinion, I'd prefer to see the game won and lost on military expertise rather than clever diplomacy and poaching other people's players.

Fourthly, if you had a problem with me, why not contact me personally rather than look to shame me by posting here and sending an MM round?

Jim

I'd like to belive a single word you say.

But I don't and I will not risk the fun of everyone playing in ITM and STM on the words of a known backstabber.

 

[DeletedUser54305]

happy to see ITM is going to real war, but on a note of PM showed above, if this where diplomatic PM's they should not have been shared...? two wrongs don't make a right.

first line second reply "I'd also be pretty flexible on how we do it" << other player must have being miss leading in there last PM to get this reply, context is everything, if your going to share you should share both sides so we can make our own view on the matter.

i would not take it as backstabbing as it is new leadership and diplomate, and talks of changing pacts to naps is in the first PM which is the right channels to take.

ITM is number one alliance and the deal on the table was smart one and a real option,Mayham toke the easy road and got mummy involved in there war but if this deal was made it would have change the face of the world, also shows that jumboicus85 understands the game and was not scared to take on mammy,

so i say unlucky nice try jumboicus85.

All is fair in love and war

 

[DeletedUser54052]

happy to see ITM is going to real war, but on a note of PM showed above, if this where diplomatic PM's they should not have been shared...? two wrongs don't make a right.

I've lost count of how many worlds I've been diplo in. Secret is never to be dishonest about a pact ally in a PM, ESPECIALLY to your enemy. Well in fact never be dishonest. You always know they will be seen in places you didn't intend. Absolutely nothing dishonest about sharing diplomatic PMs, that's a fundamental part of diplomacy, it's how it works.

first line second reply "I'd also be pretty flexible on how we do it" << other player must have being miss leading in there last PM to get this reply, context is everything, if your going to share you should share both sides so we can make our own view on the matter.

Nope. What you have here is someone trying to hammer home their point.

i would not take it as backstabbing as it is new leadership and diplomate, and talks of changing pacts to naps is in the first PM which is the right channels to take.

Well it's fairly obvious why you're not our diplo or on the council, mate, because (a) it's blatant backstabbing of the worst kind, and (b) as Jim says, he's not their diplo. anyway - he's done all this behind the backs of the rest of the TE leadership. Dumb.

ITM is number one alliance and the deal on the table was smart one and a real option,Mayham toke the easy road and got mummy involved in there war but if this deal was made it would have change the face of the world, also shows that jumboicus85 understands the game and was not scared to take on mammy,

Sigh. I think Hoplite Nuke is a rather better judge of deals than you. Mayhem didn't take the easy route - that would have been to agree to this scumbaggery. They took the honourable route of not breaking pacts. Alliances that break pacts don't do well in the long run, HN knows that. I'm sure strategically he would've loved to destroy us and then take out TE at his leisure, but dishonesty has a habit of tripping you up in this game.
And clearly Jim was VERY scared to take us on - on his own.

so i say unlucky nice try jumboicus85.

All is fair in love and war

It's a terrible try. He's been caught out betraying us and his own alliance, and been shown to be dishonourable. What that means is that nobody will trust him again on this server at least, so he won't be able to make any more pacts.

showquote
Jimbobicus85 today at 19:25
Hi RT,
I've posted my reply to this on the forum page you linked to.
What is it you want from here... what's your plan for the future?
As you can hopefully see, I don't bear you any particular ill-will and would like to do what is best for my alliance mates... so please tell me what that is in your eyes.
Jim

Well I'm not RT, but I'll tell you what I think would be best for your Alliance, Jim: ghost. You've done extreme damage, you can't possibly put it right, so for once, do the decent thing. A handover would take too long, and nobody would trust you to carry through. So just ghost.

From an ITM perspective, though, please don't. We're going to enjoy teaching you a lesson.

 

[DeletedUser54175]

Lol Id say ITM saw exactly what us in Mayhem were thinking. Its not that war with ITM isnt completely off the table or might not happen at some point- hard to say really. Might might not in the months ahead we got a long time. That being said, we (mayhem leadership) all agreed completely that even if that happens both sides are going to know an agreed upon time in advance and Ill respect them even as we'd be fighting. Anyday Id rather face an enemy you know is worthwhile and honourable. Losing a city or two then is perfectly acceptable, and Id respect them for for pulling that off. Sometimes you just have to deal with a few other problems first.
As for forwarding PMs - isnt that normal? Im scared when I even reveal my myth nuke locations theyll be passed on lol

 

[DeletedUser54305]

diplomacy=the of the art of dealing with people in a sensitive and tactful way.
"Well it's fairly obvious why you're not our diplo or on the council"<< tactful
you don't know me and it not fair to juge what you don't know, i was on the council few world FYI (att commander was my job) and highly respected player, diplo would not be my thing anyway as i would have a lot of red around LOL and i have done, I'm a good person and my word is my bound but when leadership fall others try to pick up the pieces ( i have being there ) and that is what the PM's look like to me...(details provided) no need to attack me as i will not vindicate a single person on a public forum.
This is a game

so you go to war with alliance because of a alliance member going behide his alliance back ?

so with all the pact ITM has you telling me that if everyone played nice and followed the rules you would not have broke one ?

 

[DeletedUser54052]

diplomacy=the of the art of dealing with people in a sensitive and tactful way.
"Well it's fairly obvious why you're not our diplo or on the council"<< tactful
you don't know me and it not fair to juge what you don't know, i was on the council few world FYI (att commander was my job) and highly respected player, diplo would not be my thing anyway as i would have a lot of red around LOL and i have done, I'm a good person and my word is my bound but when leadership fall others try to pick up the pieces ( i have being there ) and that is what the PM's look like to me...(details provided) no need to attack me as i will not vindicate a single person on a public forum.
This is a game

Sorry mate, wouldn't necessarily agree with your definition, and I'm a Yorkshire man, we do tend to be blunt at times. No insult or attack intended, and I know you're a very decent player and I suspect a fine tactician. However, Diplomacy in this game at the higher levels is all about honest relationships, and strategy is all about giving your alliance several pathways to victory without creating potential disasters. That's what Jim has done here - created an entirely avoidable disaster.

so you go to war with alliance because of a alliance member going behide his alliance back ?

In circumstances like these, yes - makes the decision very easy.

so with all the pact ITM has you telling me that if everyone played nice and followed the rules you would not have broke one ?

Absolutely not. Never have, never will. What you do do if you want to fight an ally is what Jaelys so rightly says - discuss it with them, and set an agreed date for dissolution of the pact. So if Jim had done that, he would have our respect instead of our contempt. But you just don't conspire against your allies if you ever want respect, and I like to think that most players want to be respected for their fighting ability and their honour.

 

[DeletedUser46478]

Well whatever has happened has happened and it will make the server interesting to say the least. The pact with Exiles was supposed to be a long lasting pact and I for one prompted them many times to get more engaged, but over the past couple of weeks I watched them go from strength to weakness.

 

[DeletedUser54305]

its not my definition LOL but i do respect what you have said

>> i must get a Yokshire dictionary << joke

"Absolutely not. Never have, never will. What you do do if you want to fight an ally is what Jaelys so rightly says - discuss it with them, and set an agreed date for dissolution of the pact. So if Jim had done that, he would have our respect instead of our contempt. But you just don't conspire against your allies if you ever want respect, and I like to think that most players want to be respected for their fighting ability and their honour."
^^ simple and fair ^^

 

[DeletedUser29627]

Not going to get in the middle of any of these debates, but just wanted to say excellent Pnp... Well written, engaging, good use of your alliance name.

Odysseus

 

[DeletedUser51159]

The old rule of thumb here is that PnP is very much established throughout many worlds....and is created for a singular purpose...that is to upset or antagonize another....that is fact !

There are limits tho, that are unbound to personal insults and mod intervention........

For me those would be intentionally flaming a war to get an upper hand on another. I would bet my life savings on a very good diplo urging this PnP to gauge reaction and sit back...If he thinks I'm wrong, I'll challenge his "wrongness" IG.

My own personal experience from Leader, Warlord, Diplo, Founder....on many servers/worlds afford me the hindsight of saying this....a very widely held opinion on military strategy gaming...."War is a direct result of failed diplomacy"

So, who was the Diplomat that started this rubbish ?

Who gains from this ? I would perhaps hold the person that "sold" the mails as an equally untrustworthy ally.

Do respond with well written dissection of my verbiage......some "scribes" on here think they are salt above the Earth...bless them.

 

[DeletedUser51011]

I have been Reading along and Frankly I find this Funny in a non Funny Way. While Breaking a Pact Behind somebodies backs is not the honorable thing to do. My understanding is that He isn't in a position of Power. So then wouldn't that mean that ITM has a trouble with 1 select player of next to no worth to the Exiles (Yes it is a team game and everyone must help out however 1 player out of 90 odd is like peanuts to peaches). In my opinion ITM can go to war with The Exiles. Makes our job easier, However couldn't the Exiles also just boot out this player and have ITM demolish him?

 

[DeletedUser51159]

"musicgame, post: 1002632, member: 51011".............. While Breaking a Pact Behind somebodies backs is not the honorable thing to do. My understanding is that He isn't in a position of Power. So then wouldn't that mean that ITM has a trouble with 1 select player of next to no worth to the Exiles (Yes it is a team game and everyone must help out however 1 player out of 90 odd is like peanuts to peaches). In my opinion ITM can go to war with The Exiles. Makes our job easier, However couldn't the Exiles also just boot out this player and have ITM demolish him?

Shush...you might be making sense !...And that's not allowed here ! There are tons of wannabe negotiators and accountants in Grep....so thread carefully ! I do 100% agree with your post tho.......this looks like a 100% set-up......so much so, a blind man could see it !

Answer the question tho....who benefits from this "non diplomatic positioned" PnP ?.......Have a tea/Coffee and a few biscuits/cookies. I'm sure I have the answer already

 

[DeletedUser54052]

The old rule of thumb here is that PnP is very much established throughout many worlds....and is created for a singular purpose...that is to upset or antagonize another....that is fact !

There are limits tho, that are unbound to personal insults and mod intervention........

For me those would be intentionally flaming a war to get an upper hand on another. I would bet my life savings on a very good diplo urging this PnP to gauge reaction and sit back...If he thinks I'm wrong, I'll challenge his "wrongness" IG.

My own personal experience from Leader, Warlord, Diplo, Founder....on many servers/worlds afford me the hindsight of saying this....a very widely held opinion on military strategy gaming...."War is a direct result of failed diplomacy"

So, who was the Diplomat that started this rubbish ?

Who gains from this ? I would perhaps hold the person that "sold" the mails as an equally untrustworthy ally.

Do respond with well written dissection of my verbiage......some "scribes" on here think they are salt above the Earth...bless them.

Floki, you're way overthinking and overcomplicating this. One consistent thread through all my PnPs under this or my old username is simple truth. You can spend ages looking for things that aren't there, and that's actually my major weapon in these things - generally the enemy don't just take it on face value, and work themselves into a lather trying to find hidden meanings. The truth is a very powerful weapon in this game, because the dishonest never expect it and never understand it. I can even tell them what I'm doing, as I am doing now, and they never believe it because they just can't understand that not everyone has as warped thought processes as they do.

You're right, though, about "war is a direct result of failed diplomacy" - that's the very point - Jim's attempt at diplomacy failed, as it was bound to when dealing with someone with honour. Who started it? Jim.

I would expect any pact ally who received something like this to pass it on without thought of how it affects the situation overall on the server. I find it utterly bizarre that anyone thinks that's somehow underhand.As I've pointed out, I'm sure that strategically, it would have suited Hoplite Nuke far better to knock us out of the game and then take on The Exiles afterwards, given they have the beating of them. It's hardly to their long-term strategic advantage to be allied to us, and I've never thought of Hoplite Nuke as a short-term thinker - but he's shown himself to be a man of honour, and that matters in this game.
As Salsa has pointed out, we thought of TE as a long-term ally. Wasn't any part of our plan to go to war with TE. Is it a handily-timed war for us? You could argue that, in fairness, but it wasn't a war we sought.
Which leaves The Exiles. What do they stand to gain? Apart from having the chance to ditch Jim, nothing.

No, this is all about how you handle yourself, how you behave, how you treat your allies, and what the consequences of deceit are.

My understanding is that He isn't in a position of Power.

I have absolutely no idea where you've got that from, but (assuming he wasn't lying then), he said "I wasn't involved in leadership at the time" and "real absence of leadership here at the time". In other words, he IS involved now.
That being the case, the rest of your argument falls apart.

 

[DeletedUser51159]

The truth is indeed powerful...isn't it ?....

What truth have you provided on this ? For me, you have provided nothing more than a set-up from another alliance....thats not "power"...but if it empowers you...keep trucking son !

You're right, though, about "war is a direct result of failed diplomacy" - that's the very point ..........................

No!!!! Again you are wrong...I did not say this, I quoted it from some war genius...get your facts right !

..........What do they stand to gain? Apart from having the chance to ditch Jim, nothing......No, this is all about how you handle yourself, how you behave, how you treat your allies, and what the consequences of deceit are.........

Lets square this off son....yer here to make trouble with an alliance in which a mail fell into your lap or was sent to you....sweet....don't do yourself any favours in applying for a diplomatic role in any of the next worlds....should you choose. This PnP is perhaps the lamest I've ever seen...It's like two lads behind the bike shed talking about rubbish.

That being the case, the rest of your argument falls apart.

Oh dear...you are as delusional as expected !

 

[DeletedUser54052]

Whatever.

This PnP is perhaps the lamest I've every said

Er, yes, whatever.