Fire Ship Ideas

[DeletedUser]

Confirmed, CS did not stick. All prerequisite are present, CP check...

New feature or a bug?

as far as I am aware this bug fix happened back on Beta in grepo 1.2?
It states that in order for a CS to land some attacking ships must survive.

 

[DeletedUser]

Back to the idea for fire ships, Ill start by saying that the fire ship is useless, I build all my cities based on the stats of troops and ships so have never used them and never intend to they are useless.

My idea to put forward would be to scrap this ship totally and replace it with a mythical ship, My explanation

At current we only have hydra as a mythical creature for the harbor, Where as on land we have a massive range of options available for all types of attacking, I think a ship with Mythical powers would be great here are some suggestions.

1. Create a mythical that has double the capabilities of hydra in attack and defense but make it real expensive in favor.

2. Create a Mythical ship that is again expensive but is undetectable by by a spy and does not show up on a spy report or attack report but still has very good defense and attack values (the same values as the new trieme would be good)

3. Create a Mythical ship that does not alert the person your attacking that you are coming, so that your invisable. Or make it so it does not show who attacked.

4. Combine 2 and 3 into one idea

A ship like the above explained is one i would use constantly.

 

[DeletedUser]

loved the idea of the peace keeper.
1.we can convert it into ghost ship or make an entirely new naval unit as ghost ship.

not seen on spy report is a good idea or may be they also not seen for some part of attack or something like that.

2.another idea is a scout ship where we can scout on enemy harbour or may be units.

need more discussion on how they should be if they become ghost or scout ships

 

[DeletedUser]

I like the idea for both a ghost ship or a scout ship but if the proper changes are made to fire ships, then there wouldn't NEED to be any deletions, although an awesome unit like either of the two above should still be introduced. could be an either/or type of unit. you can only research one of them in the academy. back to the fireship problem, a few issues come to mind.
1.) The TT has to be reduced, no matter what. It's the slow TT that keeps it from being useful.
2.) It would still be essentially useless in highly stacked frontline cities as a substantial bireme walls will kill more ls's than a FS wall. Conversely, FS would be useful in lightly stacked cities.
3.) THEY MUST BE MADE TO DIE BEFORE THE OTHER SHIPS. Thinking realistically/historically, no naval commander would leave his useless floating wood boats that are on fire behind the actual fighting ships. That'd just be useless.
4.) They have to be changed so that they can attack.

additionally, the idea of FS's being used as militia is intriguing...

In conclusion: Create a new scout or ghost ship independent of FS's, make proposed changes above (numbers TBD), if not, then possibly as militia or just get rid of them entirely

 

[DeletedUser]

I believe in reality fire ships were used offensively. Let them attack but don't let them return home! Also make them a bit faster. Also they couldn't discriminate which ship they hit! The Hydra should be immune to it only.

 

[DeletedUser]

Also they couldn't discriminate which ship they hit! The Hydra should be immune to it only.

does that mean they can hit your own ships?

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, they can hit your own ships Which makes the timing of attacks to be before the colony ship that much more important.

On another note, we really need more ships! Examples:
Scout ship
Very fast, has a chance of getting destroyed before it returns, e.g. 25% chance of scouting and surviving to give you the report. If caught the enemy knows who is doing the scouting.
Pentekontors
Faster than light ships but less attack damage. Rams ships. Can also transport troops (provided they survive the naval battle)
Cetus aka The Kraken (mythical)
Sea monster like a Hydra that can damage cities (like multiple lightning bolts) as well as destroying ships
Catapult ship
A ship that hurls rocks at a city, damaging buildings. Can also attack enemy ships though not effectively.

 

[DeletedUser]

For FS to be useful they should be the FIRST to attack and die before other ships. That way the FS becomes a sacrifice that protects the rest of your Navy and is MUCH more attractive. I'd also suggest that Fireships should be very cheap, not take too many resources, or population and should be QUICK to build. They can still take out only one enemy ship and still die when they do. But for that to be attractive they have to be cheap, fast to build, and they have to die before any other ships do. Now that's value!

 

[DeletedUser]

Catapult ship
A ship that hurls rocks at a city, damaging buildings. Can also attack enemy ships though not effectively.

^^^ I like

 

[DeletedUser]

Replace fire ships with a new type of ship, that could attack LAND units in the cty

 

[DeletedUser]

The thing I like about the FS is that adds a unique dimension to naval defence. As it stands right now, naval operations are pretty plain compared to land attacks, where you have to consider attack and armour types.

As far as specific units go:

A popular recommendation is to replace the FS with a fast/cheap/light-LS version. With the rebalanced trireme it acts as a fast attack ship (albeit not the cheapest). To me this feels like just another attack ship and it's gonna get lost between the LS and Trims. So I wouldn't want to see that.

Another one was a slow heavy dreadnaught type, lumbering naval behemoth. I could see the viability of this one as you're sacrificing speed for firepower (these would make great CS escorts in revolt worlds). This one I like a bit more, but I'm not overly keen on just another attack ship with a different attack-cost-speed balance point.

I definitely don't like the heavy-floating-defensive-fortress option. As it is people turtle up pretty good with biremes, do they really need something that makes those turtles bigger?

I think my favourite idea is the Catapult Ship (Essentially a naval equivalent of the catapult .. can attack ships as well as walls/buildings. Maybe even strike land units inside the city). However having an alternative defence ship would be nice.

What I would really like to see is to have the some kind of attacks diversification in the sea, similar to the land, i.e. ships with ram attack and ships with range attack. Some ships would be better against ram attacks, some would defend better against range. Range attacks could hit the city/walls/land units. In return catapults could play a defensive role against incoming naval attacks, by having not just land range, but also naval range attack. .. but I suppose that's beyond the scope of this RFP

 

[DeletedUser]

I think my favourite idea is the Catapult Ship (Essentially a naval equivalent of the catapult .. can attack ships as well as walls/buildings. Maybe even strike land units inside the city). However having an alternative defence ship would be nice.

Bad idea IMO, depending on how powerful you made it land units would become useless, people could and would just build a couple of nukes of this, 1 LS nuke, send in the LS, followed by 2 nukes of cata-ships then every land unit in the city would die as well as the wall. And the only way the defending player has to stop is to stack biremes or stack up with catapults who could destroy your 'cata-ships' from land. Implementing those ships would require whole-game restructuring, including adding the ability for land units to attack ships, otherwise land units become pointless and sea units become too powerful.

Thats my opinion anyway...

 

[DeletedUser]

I've got an idea. Why don't they replace the fire ship with a metal plated ship. It can have a lot of defence, very small offence, and be really slow so it would be really good for defence but terrible for supporting someone because it is so slow. Anybody like my idea?

 

[DeletedUser]

Fire ships were historically used in attack, not defence, in order to drive defenders out of a defended harbor. They were not particularly destructive but engendered fear and panic. Three proposed alternative changes then:

(1) Make fire ships attack units instead of defense (not as well as - in fact, give them no defense ability at all, like transports).

(2) Have them attack BEFORE naval combat instead of after, destroying (say) 10-30% of their number instead of one-for-one;

(3) But also removing any Tower bonus that defending ships might otherwise receive during this attack – because the defenders have had to abandon their harbor defenses and come out to fight.

That way (1) it reduces slightly the defensive emphasis the game is subject to, (2) it gives attackers a dilemma whether to slow down their attack in order to support it with fire ships or just blast in and hit the bireme wall.

 

[DeletedUser40416]

Replace fire ships with a new type of ship. Possibly an offensive or defensive ship that can also carry LU's. Maybe even both and add 2 new ships.
It would of course have to be weaker than the current LS and biremes, and have a lower transport capacity and speed than a FTS. Say:

Attack value :150 Or Defense value: 120 .... And a carrying capacity: 6 (Which can also be increased using bunks.)

Would have to have a higher population cost than, LS and Biremes. But maybe exactly the same speed as both to make up for the lower firepower.

 

[DeletedUser]

Think about that, those ships are meant to fight and when they die you lose 6 troops(12 with bunker) every time you lose one knocking out b's.

 

[DeletedUser40416]

Yeah i get what you mean there. Didn't look at it from that perspective.

Could possibly use the tranport capacity as a means of strengthening the attack of the ship. Instead of using the LU to attack other LU. Obviously that stats would have to be different.

 

[DeletedUser11165]

Have never built them & currently the only usage imo is either as a tripwire or purely for BP purposes given they cost less farm space.

My opinion is first to reduce cost to 6 or even 5 population per ship & slightly cheaper resource wise so we can get more of them & make the BP difference versus Light Ship more pronounced - this would make them an interesting choice.

Secondly I would say only one of the following: Either let them defend "first" before other ships or allow them to stop colony ships but not transports.

 

[DeletedUser]

I have an idea for the fire ships. But let me begin with this question: why do we have navy's in our cities? To protect them from other attacking cities on other islands and to STOP FOREIGN TROOPS FROM REACHING THE SHORES OF OUR CITY and plundering it. The fire ship, however; cannot stop transport ships and ultimately cannot protect a city from an attack. And now my suggestion: that you make a formula that allows the fire ship to stop transport ships in a reasonable ratio. You could have the transport ships be destroyed or you could have them turn around and not attack after their escorts have been destroyed. This would, as I believe, make the fire ship the ultimate defending naval unit. Also, you should have fire ships be destroyed first instead of last, so that if I have a city with 50 fire ships and 1 bireme and someone attacks me with 50 light ships and 10 transport ships, than I would destroy all 50 LS with my 50 FS and have 1 bireme remaining to destroy all 20 transport ships. This may be in effect but I saw some people complaining about this and I am not sure if this happens or not because I have no fire ship cities to test this.

 

[DeletedUser345]

1. Create a mythical that has double the capabilities of hydra in attack and defense but make it real expensive in favor.

The Hydra already costs nearly maximum favour, this mythical unit you talk about would have an attack value the same as 20 light ships.

2. Create a Mythical ship that is again expensive but is undetectable by by a spy and does not show up on a spy report or attack report but still has very good defense and attack values (the same values as the new trieme would be good)

Spy report would be viable however i doubt it would be that useful for such a high expense, if you couldn't see it on an attack report then that would just be ridiculous.

3. Create a Mythical ship that does not alert the person your attacking that you are coming, so that your invisable. Or make it so it does not show who attacked.

No way! That would be so overpowered and knock things out of balance, then what would the use of not knowing who attacked be? You'd likely send it with stuff such as colony ship and transports etc. which would show them who attacked.

Disagree with all this catapult-ship malarky as well, what they need in my mind is a defensive ship with higher defense than bireme, same population as lightship and as slow as transports.