Discussion In conquest worlds, suggest a change with regards to Myth units in CS attempts

DeletedUser30411

Guest
I'm asking who would be in favor of a temporary god change in a city, where a CS has landed, for the length of the siege.
What I've seen happen over the years is that it's nearly impossible to take an active players city. With all the games now, Myth nukes are very easy to build. It is better to build a city without a wall, let someone else try to take it, and then break the siege with Myths fliers. The defending player will get more BP then the player attempting the CS and just continue to sim to get bigger.

My suggestion is easier to put in an example;

I send a CS to a Zeus city. With my CS attack I have Griffins. My CS lands in the city with at least 1 Griffin surviving. That griffin causes the temple to "temporarily" change to Artemis. Meaning you can now support the conquest with Artemis' Boars, but not with Zeus' Myths. Any Myths that had been recruited in that city, but are currently outside, can still return to attack the siege. Thus, this will not effect a back Myth snipe of the CS. In effect, this lets the attacker determine the cities god for the length of the siege.
If the siege is broken, any Zeus Myths that had been built, just like any other unit that had been built, would still survive.

Currently, there is little to no reason to build defensive Myths. But with this change, you can now build Boars, Hounds, Pegs and Cents, and use whichever of them YOU decide in attempting to take a city. Myths hold up much better against Myths, this would come closer to balancing the playing field with attack and defense of a CS. Right now, in my opinion, sinking a CS is much easier then keeping one alive, thanks
 

DeletedUser49796

Guest
I think this is a good idea; although it would be difficult I imagine to implement?

But the idea definitely has a lot of merit.
 

DeletedUser54192

Guest
I understand what you are trying to say... I think

So let me get this straight
If I attack with a CS some Lightships, and lets say.. 400 slingers and 20 Pegasii
You want those Pegasii to be able to stay in the city and defend the conquest, despite the city worshipping Zeus by the original defender?
I don't think that is quite it.

At the moment, it works like this:
- The city has a specific god.
- The CS wave may contain myth units of any god. These myths remain with the siege, even if they are not of the same god as the one worshipped by city under siege.
- All other myth supports must be the same god as worshipped by the target city, irrelevant of the god of any myths in the CS wave.

For example:
- Target city worships Zeus.
- CS wave contains pegasi (Athena). Pegasi remain with siege.
- Minotaurs/Manticores may support the siege, because the city worships Zeus. Pegasi/centaurs (and myths of other non-Zeus gods) will bounce, because it is dependent on what the owner of the city chose as the god, not what myths the CS driver included in the CS wave.

The effect of this is that the purely defensive myths see very little use among experienced players, with the exception of rare heavily-stacked cities in enemy territory (or if a team decides on walls + DLU stacks for WW islands). So pegasi, centaurs, cerberi and boars are see little use, and mixed-role myths such as medusae, minotaurs and cyclops are also limited in use. You cannot change the god of a city you are going to siege. And if the city has no myths when you spy it, you may not know what you can support a siege with anyways.

The proposed idea would work like this.
- The city has a specific god.
- If the CS wave contains myth units belonging to a particular god, the city functions as if this god is worshipped for the duration of the siege.
- Myth supports of the same god as the CS wave may support the siege, even if that was not the god of the city before the siege. Other myths may not support the siege.

For example:
- Target city worships Zeus.
- CS wave contains pegasi/centaurs. For the duration of the siege, the city now functions as though it worships Athena.
- Further waves of pegasi/centaurs will be allowed to support the siege. Zeus myths will not be allowed to support the siege as the city doesn't worship Zeus. Other non-Athena myths may not support the siege either.


Apologies for the long-winded explanation. Quick summary:
- This change would allow the CS-driver to choose the god of the target city for the duration of the siege, by placing myth units of that god in the CS wave.
- This change would bring defensive myths back into general use in conquest servers. Given the efficiency of defensive myths, this may make it easier to hold sieges against fliers.
- If there are no myth units in the CS wave, the god is unaffected.

I hope that helps (and that I got it right and didn't make myself look stupid :p).
 

Silver Witch

Strategos
I think its true that with the volume of easily available myths from looting and comps, actually holding a siege in a conquest world where a wall is zero is very difficult now (although there are still plenty who build walls!). I think some concession to help besiegers is a good idea.

However Im not sure this change would make much difference tbh. Myth defence is also easy to kill without a wall. If you wanted to bring it in there isn't really a need to change the god, you could just say that if a cs lands with a different god that both gods apply for the siege duration. This does give the defenders some extra benefit.
 

DeletedUser54192

Guest
It is rather easy to kill land defense without a wall. But being able to dictate the god for a siege should help it a little bit.

- Boars are equally good against sharp and blunt attacks. You could make a DLU defense out of primarily boars, without having to worry much about balance, as ranged attacks will only be a worry if they are the same island.
- Brings a bit more use to dual-role units such as medusae and minotaurs. At the moment, they only seem to be good for a CS wave. Their attack isn't quite good enough to be using in place of regular OLU or fliers on a regular basis. But under the current system, there is no guarantee that you can use them in siege support unless they are with the CS. So adding the ability for an attacker to dictate the god would perhaps increase the usefulness of all-around myths.
- Hydra: no, they aren't a land unit. But they are a strong myth unit whose use is hampered by the current system.
- Favour use. On the conquest server I have been playing, I have often found myself maxing out on favour with certain gods when I am rebuilding. Hades is of little use at the moment unless you are on a red island and building Erinyes one by one, and Athena is of basically no use in conquest if you aren't attacking or getting attacked. Allowing you to effectively choose the god for a siege would perhaps allow a more balanced attitude towards the gods during rebuilding, etc.

I think changing is a little better than adding, for the following reasons:
- A trick sometimes used by defenders is to change the god shortly before the CS lands (if they are using up the favour anyways). So while you would know one of the gods being worshipped, the other is out of your knowledge or control, in many cases. While this is a good trick, it also seems like a bit of a cheap shot.
- I know basically nothing about coding, but I would imagine that it is more difficult to code it for having two gods "worshipped" at once, rather than just changing the god temporarily?
 

DeletedUser30411

Guest
Kal, you explained it better then I did, I was afraid if it went on too long, people wouldn't read it. Boars are my personal favorite defensive Myth. When given the chance, I will send 80 or so Boars with the CS, if I could support with several hundred more it would not only help hold a siege but BP would have a better balance between the attacker and defender.
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
i think a reason fliers are prevalent and other myths aren't, is that this is what inno provides in an event
it makes it convenient to fill the inventory with buffs for sieges/ breaks
with events that have a map (like sparta vs. hades, or commander of rome), defensive myths might be thrown in such as pegs, cerbs, or cents, but not boars or cys
however, the fliers are rewards more often
this is what players see, get used to, and i think, therefore use
just the grunt opinion of why there aren't more ppl using everything that's available
 

DeletedUser30411

Guest
I see the advantage of the fliers, speed, power of attack, and they don't have to get through the harbor. People aren't using them because the current setup only allows you to use them on a limited basis. Run the sim for 100 Griffins vs 100 Boars with no wall. Run it again with 300 Boars, fewer Boars die. If the attacker gets to choose the god, even without a wall, it would make holding sieges easier, or even possible against better players
 

Shuri2060

Strategos
I think I like the current system actually. It encourages you to build defensive units like Boars, etc. as part of the CS escort. It'll then become important to 'god test' the city both beforehand and after the siege starts to see what you can support with.
 
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