Open Is Democracy the best form of government?

Discussion in 'Debate And Discussion' started by Alijster, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Alijster

    Alijster Hipparchus

    Aug 7, 2015
    Well after a long 2 year break from this once glorious and busy forum, everything seems so dark and quiet.

    So i thought i should maybe revive this old section that I used to enjoy with this question.

    What do you think?
  2. figtree2

    figtree2 Polemarch

    Aug 6, 2012
    Democracy is actually a horrible form of government in my opinion. Democracy is open to a lot of corruption and influence. A democracy will experience the effects of change IMMEDIATELY while a more representative form of government will not due to elections. Democracies are rule of the majority, but sometimes the majority is wrong. Throughout history, democracies have been brief and gone out with a bang.
  3. dadofwildthang

    dadofwildthang Phrourach

    Dec 24, 2012
    and the other options that free thinkers have to embrace are?
    - Rule by Royalty...yup want the inbreeds in-charge
    -Tyranny.. works if you are the mfwic
    -Current Communism (Russian, Chinese and Korean) the last 2
    -Republic.."a form of government that elects its representatives.." the last 1
    -Religious Rulers...are you allowed to pray that they/it ends soon? and most seem to be elected by their sycophants
    -pure communism..maybe the simplest form of government ie "dont make good shoes you dont eat or live well", still there will always be somebody who needs to take charge
    -Solo Government... get an island, live in the woods whatever, tends to be boring as heck

    So what is the best form of Government? that in which the electorate are able to correct their mistakes by open fair elections..and in the USA to understand their recent election results and wonder; what hope do folks have for the future?

    Lots, there is an election coming up that will allow the electorate to effect the balance of power in both houses in the USA...the Founding Fathers seemed to understand that "Absolute power corrupts Absolutely" and crafted their Constitution to have 3 separate and independent areas; Legislative, Executive and Judicial, with the Executive subordinate to the majority of the Legislative and to judicial review..Should stop a dictator

    A form of Governance which allows regular corrections by the electorate to that Governance is perhaps the safest now the caveat
    you have to hope the electorate is up to the task or has systemic "dumbing down" of the education system finally achieved the catatonic sheep-like state that folks like #45 need to operate

    feel free to chew on this one ;{)[​IMG]
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  4. Loves You

    Loves You Chiliarch

    Oct 21, 2016
    A Direct Democracy is rather tough to abide by, and similar to a "Popularity Contest"; they may not be the best leaders, but they are certainly the most popular(At least during their election).
    That being said, the larger the body of governance, the large the body of dissenting opinions.. and it unravels from there

    If I understand you correcty; and putting it bluntly
    1)Do not like the manner in which the United States elects its officials
    2)Are maybe a constitutionalist?. . but I think it's safe for me to conclude you do not like "The Donald", as you compare him to a Dictator
    3) (folks like #45 need to operate) <-- I did not get this reference, until I looked it up!! Not sure it's the best "meme" reference. but hey\
    Overall, eloquently put without going into a "rage" so to speak, so I +1'd your post! Props

    @Alijster If we get back to the original question; Welcome back after your two year break!

    Different Types of Democracies:[The List is quite Enormous; but here are some of the defining types]

    Direct Democracy-When decisions are made, everyone in the community has a vote; and no vote is greater than another.

    Representative Democracy-When decisions are made, community members vote on a individual, who will represent their interests to the best of their ability.

    Parliamentary Deomocracy--When decisions are made, community members vote on a representative. That representative is also alligned with a certain political party, usually in opposition with another. While the "ruling" party does hold the majority of power, opposing party members are forced to work together on key issues such as foreign affairs.

    Presidential Democracy- When decisions are made, community members vote on executive officials directly. These decisions will choose who will rule the country, among other key positions of governance.

    Majoritarian- Decisions are based upon majority rule. If the "leading" political side has majority control, then they are able to set the agenda and make decisions.

    Consensus- Decisions cannot be made until a "consensus" is made amongst officials regarding policy. No one party can overrule the other with absolute power.

    Types of Government of the Top 7 Countries Ranked by Nominal GDP(2017)[U.N Rankings][Select Countries Websites]
    1. United States - Constitutional Republic
    2. China - People's Democratic Dictatorship/Communist (Jury is still out on the Official Ruling.. its complicated)
    3. Japan - Parliamentary Constitutional Monarchy
    4. Germany - Federal Parliamentary Republic
    5. United Kingdom - Parliamentary Constitutional Monarchy
    6. India - Federal Parliamentary Republic
    7. France - Semi-Presidential Republic
    .... Technically.. China is a Democracy(depending on your definition)?? However, of the leading Economic Powers, none of them are in Democracy's in the traditional sense of the word.
    Rhizome9 and dadofwildthang like this.
  5. TobiramaSenju

    TobiramaSenju Hipparchus

    Oct 29, 2017
    Direct democracy is also impossible for big nations, since having the whole population convey ideas is just not possible.

    I also think UK is a Representative pluralist democracy since they do use MP's to convey ideas for each constituency.

    What do you guys think about codified and uncodified constitutions in Democracy ?
  6. Rhizome9

    Rhizome9 Hipparchus

    May 27, 2015
    @Loves You - Your comment reminds me of what Plato says about Democracy.

    I am not going to even attempt to characterise the development of different types of government over the past few thousand years in one brief post! There has been a slow and gradual development of 'government' over that time as power has shifted from the sole dominance of a monarch, through parliaments led by elite groups, through to what we have today. The most recent shifts in terms of representation occurred towards the end of the 19th and early in the 20th century towards universal sufferage.

    However, the various types of 'democracy' that we have today are nowhere near to being a direct democracy (and I am not suggesting that direct democracy is necessarily a good thing). The idea that any forms of democracy currently in place are there to enact the 'Will of the People' is of course a sham. A lie. Democracies are superficial at best, and are subtley controlled and manipulated by powerful groups.

    Democracy might not be the best form of government, but the concept of 'democracy' relates to far more than simply the governing of people. It relates to a complex interplay of; power dynamics, ideology, interest groups, etc.

    So, perhaps the question should be, is the current form of democracy the best form of government for all of those who are governed?
  7. The Smilodon Fatalis

    The Smilodon Fatalis Polemarch

    Jun 6, 2013
    Some might call me biased here I think a representative democracy that reflects capitalistic values is the best form of government. But I also think that people tend to be stupid when it comes to voting and the longest a democratic government has been successfully run has been a few hundred years before either being conquered or turning into an empire. I think America's founding fathers had the right idea on democracy/republics in a way. Originally they planned to make it so only a few could vote. You had to be the right age, own land, etc. Of course they got it wrong with having to be male and white but that's changed. But I think the key concepts apply here. I feel that in order to vote the following requirements should be met.

    1) Must be 21.
    2) Must have a valid ID.
    3) Must have graduated high school/have a GED.
    4) Must own land/a home.
    5) Must pay taxes.

    Exceptions: Active military, veterans, public service workers, retired worker.

    Put these rules in and I can pretty much assure you that the BS going on in America stops before 2025 and that nobody asks this question for awhile.

    But even in its flawed state, its still better than theocracy, communism, fascism, etc.
    dadofwildthang likes this.
  8. Rhizome9

    Rhizome9 Hipparchus

    May 27, 2015
    Thank you @The Smilodon Fatalis for illustrating my point about bringing into this discussion ideology and power.
    Whilst 'Capitalism' began as an economic system, the logic of Capitalism - or 'capitalistic values' as stated in the above post - is an ideology and does affect how we view and understand the world (and how we understand forms of government).
    This particular form of ideology has the pursuit of wealth and power for a minority as its goal, and so society reflects those goals as its own.

    However, should a 'democracy' not be about all of its citizen's and not just a few?
    Should the measure of a democratic society not be about its material gains, but about how it treats its aged, its poor and its sick?
    Should a democratic government create the conditions for all of its people to be able to maximise their potential?

    The purpose of my posts is to enrich the discussion around the nature of democracy. Other forms of government are possible - and from the perspective of governing may even be preferable - however, what democracy promises, but so far fails to fulfil, is the possibility of inclusion of all of society.
    dadofwildthang likes this.
  9. The Smilodon Fatalis

    The Smilodon Fatalis Polemarch

    Jun 6, 2013
    If we go with all of its citizens you'd have 4 year olds picking their presidents based on who sounded cooler or who their parents told them too. While i'm sure that's something the progressives would love since it would mean they might actually win due to the sheer amount of idealistic 12-20 year olds now voting. That would suck for everyone else. There's a certain age where people won't listen to you no matter how right you are. I remember having a libertarian professor back in college, he explained that gun violence wasn't even a real issue which is controversial to a group of 18-20 year old college students. But he backed that statement up, showing us FBI statistics on violent crime and state how on the whole, violent crime in America has decreased every year since the 90's. Then he showed us rifle statistics and proved that AR-15s aren't even a blip on the radar. Nearly every student in the room rejected those facts and started making emotional pleas.

    I live outside of Detroit currently, which is a city that went bankrupt and puts up serious numbers for welfare recipients and has low employment numbers in the city and a high dropout rate. Hell Detroit schools are arguably the worst in the country so even graduating from there isn't really an achievement. Why should they get to vote in presidential elections?

    VIRTUALSELF Chiliarch

    Mar 31, 2018
    Now that we are playing Grepolis, i would say Socrates' opinion about democracy is true: "Do you think every single person in a country is suitable to take the right decisions?" No. Oligarchy should be the way IMO.
  11. dadofwildthang

    dadofwildthang Phrourach

    Dec 24, 2012
    Dictator's win by establishing selective voting (reducing opposition voters) then removing the opposition, controlling the news that reaches the remainder and then conforming/destroying the Judicial system to support their needs.
    WRT the Detroit comments.. I was living in the US through the 60's (young kid) Wis.
    I was taught that WW2 started after Pearl Harbour, that stuff from 1939 on wasn't counted.. Point being; even in a good educational system if the facts are incorrect, what follows afterwards starts with a flawed platform.
    Education level shouldn't be used a criteria "Look up Robert MacNamara's 100,000" genocide by education level wiping out a generation of ungrateful/unruly/uneducated folks
    Perhaps though, a question of whether the voters who watch Fox News and get the rest of their News from Facebook should be eligble to vote is worthy of discussion

    By the people , for the people..Was the basis of the Constitution .. not elected by the people.. bought by Big Bucks
    Caellum249 and Rhizome9 like this.
  12. Rhizome9

    Rhizome9 Hipparchus

    May 27, 2015
    But who should decide who is suitable and who is not? You? I don't think so.
    How do we make a decision as to who is suitable and who is not?
    Do we say that those who are unsuitable are the 'basket of deplorables' or people who watch Fox News, or the Cucks, or the....?

    When we ask what is the 'best' form of government, then aagainst what criteria are we measuring? 'Best' for whom?
    Yes, exactly dadofwildthang
    Perhaps democracy is the worst form of government after all as it holds out the promise of equality - it holds out the promise that all of the people within that democracy will have the same opportunities to lead a successful life - only to have that promise cruelly taken away from them. Sadly, this is what currently takes place across Western democracies.
  13. Caellum249

    Caellum249 Taxiarch

    Apr 6, 2018
    Who decides who is suitable or not, in my view only the people can make that decision.

    Oligarchy, In my experience Oligarch's are those who are ruthless enough to take what they want when they want it, with no thoughts of social conscience, government of the people for the people by the people should be just that for the people. We forget at our peril that the fundamental purpose of government, is to make the lives of people better.
  14. Caellum249

    Caellum249 Taxiarch

    Apr 6, 2018

    Interesting point in 1945 the allies imposed on Germany a form of government that was federal in nature, democratic, but also where politicians where elected by proportional representation in the 70 years since Germany has proved to be one of the more stable countries in the world, a strong economy, with a social conscience and few of the extremes that exist in countries with a pendulum style of politics.

    The founding father you state:
    However, with the Judicial arm of government being presidential appointments it negates the impartiality of the judiciary as to be appointed they must have gained the favour of the current incumbent president. Equally the failure to ensure that politicians can not be bought by the highest bidder ensures that he or she with the biggest bucks can corrupt politics.

    The third point i wanted to make is that in a country were effectively we see 2 party politics, there have been occasions when the Legislative, the Executive and the Judiciary have been from one single political party, again absolute power. It is equally possible that their campaigns could be funded by a single person or small group of people an where are their allegiances you again have the potential for absolute power.

    VIRTUALSELF Chiliarch

    Mar 31, 2018
    Not me at all. Im talking about dream scenarios, where the cleverest of the cleverest people would be the leading people. Hence why i wouldnt suit the position to decide who is suitable [​IMG]
  16. Lord Prometey

    Lord Prometey Hipparchus

    Aug 29, 2017
  17. dianices

    dianices Hipparchus

    Sep 23, 2016
    government is driven by economy, and that in turn is driven by control of commercial activity, visavis, control over distribution of wealth, resources, and commodities. GDP or gross domestic product isn't a good measure for much of anything, as it does not discern good debt from bad, but uses debt in total as an indicator of its' size and growth, so a nation could be heavily in debt and still have an extremely high GDP.

    so what then? is happiness an indicator? again, you have to consider both the source and its methods, because just like surveys, just like polls, just like prince Machiavelli, just like so many people who stand in front of a camera and speak,.....there is no guarantee that you'll get the truth, or a fair and accurate version of it.

    to create a culture where people can trust each other and be certain of reliable decision making no matter the process, ethical behavior and attitudes must be taught, observed and practiced in every facet of daily life, in every place possible, and on a perpetual basis. self control is paramount to social control, and respect for others is respect for self. We must have concern for each others' needs, in order to fulfill our own, because they are the same, so we must learn, to work together, to realize our mutual development as a society and progress as a species.
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  18. Xanthippos Spartan

    Xanthippos Spartan Hekatontarch

    Feb 12, 2018
    The best government is the mixed Constitution, where you have an executive who can make some of the important immediate decisions needed (the good of monarchy, but his power is checked, so (we hope) avoiding the downside of monarchy). You have a Senate, elders, the most educated and wise (hopefully) able to make many of the decisions of the government (the best of Aristocracy without (we hope) the worst of it) and the people's direct representatives in a House of Representatives, these representatives able to meet with any of their constituents who have needs they can attend to (the best of democratic government without (we hope) the worst of it)