Is Raising the Minimum Wage Economically Advantageous?

DeletedUser8396

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The topic: Is Raising the Minimum Wage Economically Advantageous? Is Not Raising the Minimum Wage Socially Irresponsible?

The motion: This house believes that raising the minimum wage is advantageous and not doing so is socially irresponsible.

Details: A newer, kairotic topic. Dealing with the minimum wage being raised to 15$ an hour, nearly double it's current US setting. It is also said that not raising the minimum wage to something capable of sustaining a livelihood is socially irresponsible and, in some cases, morally wrong.

Proponents argue: Raising the minimum wage will allow people to have more money to spend, which will inject more money into the economy. This will keep there from being any significant (if any at all) job loss and, possibly, job gain. Due to the standard cost of living, the minimum wage is not capable of paying for the base necessities of life.

Opponents argue: Raising the minimum wage will cause employers to lay off their work force to compensate the new minimum. Now the unemployment rates skyrocket. The aspect of companies gaining more money from consumers due to the increase in pay is not definite or reliable and will not be enough to compensate the increase it must pay its worker. Furthermore, it is not socially irresponsible as the jobs where minimum wage is an issue are not intended to be a career one would live on.

The points of view are not exhaustive.

Although the debate has taken the situation from the US monetary system and economy, feel free to use other countries as examples instead.

Stipulations: All arguments suggesting a large corporation conspiracy planning to overtake the world is not fair game.

Happy debating!
 

DeletedUser45380

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I love this topic! Good job Pebble!
Since I don't have much time now, I'll try to give as short and simple a version as I possible can. I'm gonna use some basic economics terms and not explain them for people who don't know.

Raising the minimum wage is not economically advantageous. Assuming that the economy is close to the equilibrium, raising the minimum wage will cause a shift and unbalance the economy. The economy will now have to either raise prices (inflation) or cut costs (layoffs) to get back to the equilibrium.
Really for it to be beneficial, the government should try to raise real income instead of nominal income. That would be the best thing that they can do to be socially responsible.
Raising the minimum wage is very good politically, because it gets the lower class people to support the politician. It helps them get voters, but a lot of them don't understand economics well.
Realistically most people make much more than minimum wage so the majority of people are not helped by this. However the negative repercussions are felt by many more people. (If Average Joe Supermarket pay its employes minimum wage, then when minimum wage goes up, they probably raise prices. In effect middle and upper class people have less money to go around spending on other essentials.) I could argue that it can be socially irresponsible to raise the minimum wage.
 

DeletedUser

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You should add more background information when it's about something country-specific, not everyone is American :p Good topic though!

Raising the minimum wage is not economically advantageous. Assuming that the economy is close to the equilibrium, raising the minimum wage will cause a shift and unbalance the economy. The economy will now have to either raise prices (inflation) or cut costs (layoffs) to get back to the equilibrium.
Really for it to be beneficial, the government should try to raise real income instead of nominal income. That would be the best thing that they can do to be socially responsible.
Raising the minimum wage is very good politically, because it gets the lower class people to support the politician. It helps them get voters, but a lot of them don't understand economics well.
Realistically most people make much more than minimum wage so the majority of people are not helped by this. However the negative repercussions are felt by many more people. (If Average Joe Supermarket pay its employes minimum wage, then when minimum wage goes up, they probably raise prices. In effect middle and upper class people have less money to go around spending on other essentials.) I could argue that it can be socially irresponsible to raise the minimum wage.
I disagree with you.

First of all, assuming that the economy is close to the equilibrium is a massive assumption to make. Economics is not my preferred field so I don't know enough about it to fully argue this but I highly doubt that the equilibrium has been reached in the US. You're going to have to cite some reliable sources to show that, if it is at all possible for a country's economy to ever reach an equilibrium. (which I don't think it is)

Secondly, the government can't exactly simple change the real income so changing the nominal income is the closest thing. It's maybe not ideal but it's simply the only way.

I do agree that this issue is probably abused by politicians to gain popularity, and it's true that a lot of people, especially the lower end of the wage spectrum, don't really understand economics. However, the people who do in fact understand economics better than anyone are actually in favour of raising the minimum wage, but more about that later. I'll also address your point about layoffs later.

Finally, the fact that most people won't be affected by this is not a valid argument. It's also not true. Raising the minimum wage to $10 would impact over 15 million workers. That's over 10% of the working force. That's huge!
Regardless, decisions shouldn't be made based on the fact of how many people it will affect, they should be based on their merit. The legalization of gay marriage (yay) doesn't affect most people, yet it's a good thing it was done.

Great points Scorecard, and I too love this topic...
I have fully formatted cases with jargon and carded evidence that I could pull out, but I'm sure no one wants to read through all of that, so here's the summary.
I'd actually always encourage people to cite sources, it's a good habit. Especially in this kind of setting :D

I will be taking the stance that raining the minimum wage, or instituting a living wage mandate, is economically responsible but not morally correct.

First, raising the minimum wage has a minimal effect on jobs. This is supported my many studies and if you are looking for them or disagree with this assertion, I will be more than happy to document dump. There are many reasons why this is so: increased productivity, more circulation of money, etc.

Additionally, it actually helps the businesses many claim it hurts. This is because of the aforementioned boost in productivity due to an increase of pride in one's job and many other factors. Additionally, the people who are working minimum wage jobs are likely to be spending that money which is good for business.

Finally, this is good for the economy because it will improve circulation of money. Again, people who work minimum wage jobs likely will be the same people who need the money, whereas those with more money are more likely to save it. It is common knowledge that circulation of money is good for the economy, so by giving money to those who spend it, the government is helping the economy.

Now on to why it is morally wrong...this may be a bit harder to understand, but stick with me and I think it will be understandable.

First, we must value human autonomy above anything else. This is because one's personhood and one's ability to make decisions are a prerequisite to almost anything else. A life without autonomy is a life not worth living, so we must value autonomy before anything here.

Now that this has been established, I will get into why it harms autonomy. A living wage mandate or raising the minimum wage is morally bad because it is coercive. Coercion is bad because it limits personal autonomy, and autonomy must be valued before anything else. These laws are coercive for many reasons: they tell the employer how much they must pay the employee, they tell a minimum wage worker how much their labor is worth, they assume the gov't knows what an individual needs to survive, etc.

To conclude, it is economically beneficial to raise the minimum wage/institute a minimum wage, but it is not morally correct.
I agree with all your point on it being economically beneficial, but I fail to see how it is morally wrong. Honestly I don't even see how morality comes into play at all. I cannot comprehend how you list all of these positives and then dismiss the entire idea based on some weird morality argument.

I don't understand your coercion argument at all. We're talking about the law here. That's coercive by definition. It's as coercive as any other law, in fact, it's no more coercive than the current minimum wage. Do you want to live in a country without a minimum wage? I'm sure all the people in China, Taiwan and Africa agree with you. Believe me, it's a good thing your employer is told how much they should pay you because I can assure you that there is someone who is willing to do your job for less money.


Now for my own points;
Yes the minimum wage should be raised as the current $7.25/h national minimum simply doesn't cut it. A human cannot feasibly live from that. However I do think that $15/h is too high. I'd side with the 7 Nobel Laureates in Economics who argue that it should be raised to $10.10 by 2016.

It would have no discernible effects on Employment

The current system is terrible as it does not take inflation in account at all, so the purchasing power has been going down significantly and will be as long as the minimum wage remains unchanged.
b16db9db2a.png
I suggest a system like we have in The Netherlands, where the minimum wage increases with inflation every 6 months. (yearly would be fine)

When working people don't earn enough to sustain themselves, who do they turn to? The government. Who pays for welfare and benefits? You do. The taxpayers do. Increasing the minimum wage will mean less people have to rely on these benefits meaning taxes could be lowered, or that allocated money could be used on other services. (did someone say NASA?)
 
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DeletedUser

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I'd actually always encourage people to cite sources, it's a good hebit. Especially in this kind of setting :D

It's in LD formatting though so I doubt it would transfer well and I really don't want to retype it all
 

DeletedUser40768

Guest
Finally, the fact that most people won't be affected by this is not a valid argument. It's also not true. Raising the minimum wage to $10 would impact over 15 million workers. That's over 10% of the working force. That's huge!
Regardless, decisions shouldn't be made based on the fact of how many people it will affect, they should be based on their merit. The legalization of gay marriage (yay) doesn't affect most people, yet it's a good thing it was done.

Yeah it affects the teenagers like me who are looking for money, got to look out for us ;) I don't think 10 is good, though it would be an improvement. I think closer to 12 is better, but 15 is way to high. Yeah gay marriage is legal, that is something that should have been done.

Y
Now for my own points;
Yes the minimum wage should be raised as the current $7.25/h national minimum simply doesn't cut it. A human cannot feasibly live from that. However I do think that $15/h is too high. I'd side with the 7 Nobel Laureates in Economics who argue that it should be raised to $10.10 by 2016.

It would have no discernible effects on Employment

This is great and all but would it not be better/easier if the people earning minimum wage just didn't get taxed (or taxed as heavy). It would be an "increase" to the extent that they take home more of the money they earned. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I surely must be if it isn't already done.

I suggest a system like we have in The Netherlands, where the minimum wage increases with inflation every 6 months. (yearly would be fine)

When working people don't earn enough to sustain themselves, who do they turn to? The government. Who pays for welfare and benefits? You do. The taxpayers do. Increasing the minimum wage will mean less people have to rely on these benefits meaning taxes could be lowered, or that allocated money could be used on other services. (did someone say NASA?)

NASA are you serious :p This country is running out of funding for Social Security and Medicare right now :D Really I don't care to debate this topic very much. I am the age where all I can get is minimum wage basically so I am happy with any improvements you guys can come up with. Will say though that the minimum wage increase might not affect the big corporation, but the local small business that barely survives as it is would be hurt more by an increase to $15.

Actually come to think of it I am not even sure if $15 is a feasible living wage in NYC either.
 

DeletedUser

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This is great and all but would it not be better/easier if the people earning minimum wage just didn't get taxed (or taxed as heavy). It would be an "increase" to the extent that they take home more of the money they earned. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I surely must be if it isn't already done.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is essentially the EITC or Earned Income Tax Credit
 

DeletedUser33530

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Yeah it affects the teenagers like me who are looking for money, got to look out for us ;) I don't think 10 is good, though it would be an improvement. I think closer to 12 is better, but 15 is way to high. Yeah gay marriage is legal, that is something that should have been done.

Actually around three quarters of minimum wage earners are 20 or older.

This is great and all but would it not be better/easier if the people earning minimum wage just didn't get taxed (or taxed as heavy). It would be an "increase" to the extent that they take home more of the money they earned. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I surely must be if it isn't already done.
I honestly don't know the answer to this but referring to your ending there. There is alot of things that should be done that haven't been done. Just because something is the best option doesn't mean politicians will choose it.



NASA are you serious :p This country is running out of funding for Social Security and Medicare right now :D Really I don't care to debate this topic very much. I am the age where all I can get is minimum wage basically so I am happy with any improvements you guys can come up with.
first job I ever had was $10 an hour and I was guaranteed 100 no matter what. :p
Also screw you we are going to Mars! I must escape this planet at all costs.
Will say though that the minimum wage increase might not affect the big corporation, but the local small business that barely survives as it is would be hurt more by an increase to $15.
Interestingly enough 61% of small business owners with employees support gradually increasing the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.10, and then adjusting it annually to keep pace with the cost of living.
source
 

DeletedUser46838

Guest
Yes it is

some of the factors that it will affect

1.) First it will improve health and morale. Since they can boost wages, they'll be more likely to travel around more and buy healthier foods(junk food is cheaper than healthy food now)

2.) Boosts Economy~If you give them more money they'll be buying more stuff hence the boosting of the economy.

3.) money is everything. You have money, you have more opportunity.
 

DeletedUser

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Yes it is

some of the factors that it will affect

1.) First it will improve health and morale. Since they can boost wages, they'll be more likely to travel around more and buy healthier foods(junk food is cheaper than healthy food now)

2.) Boosts Economy~If you give them more money they'll be buying more stuff hence the boosting of the economy.

3.) money is everything. You have money, you have more opportunity.

Ooo, good topic here. However, I need to think it through more before making an indepth post. However, I do have something to say on this post.

Just because people have more money, doesn't mean they are going to travel around and eat healthier by any means. Eating habits depend on a person's preferences. Just because healthy food cost more, doesn't mean that is the main reason people don't buy healthy food. It mainly has to do with the fact that a lot of people don't like to eat healthy.
 

DeletedUser30636

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Don't usually partake in debates but can't help myself here, it will be short and sweet as I don't plan on rambling on. Bottom line is the minimum wage should not be imcreased. First of all the jobs in which you are paid a minimum wage, are not jobs that are supposed to support a family. These jobs are great for young students to earn some money, while getting experience working a real job. Now with that being said, more economical reasons why it shouldn't be raised would be because the risk of inflation. With businesses being forced to up the minimum wage pay, they may be forced to raise there prices, I know many think "McDonalds has so much money they wouldn't see a difference" well correct, however most chains are ran by franchise owners, people who basically own the store, I'm not quite sure how this whole process works, but McDonald employees' pay checks don't come from the Ronald McDonald bank account. This forces the store owner to keep up, and they may not be able to, forcing a business to potentially shut down, thus decreasing employment. Should not be done
 

DeletedUser40493

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I don't have much time and will be quick.

One real example from the past. In the beginnign when Ford were a little known company and they were close to a total collapse they did 1 thing - Hired a new manager, whose first action was to raise the salaries double. That way the mood in the company rised and the workers there were able to afford new cars, and because they were happy with their boss they bougth Fords. Little by little more and more Fords were driving across the country which was a very good marketing and more and more ppl were beginning to buy Fords as they were seeing them around.

Raising the population standart can be only a good thing - it wont lead to economy collapse if managed wisely.

If all the workers can afford to pay the boy to change their lightbulb they will all do so and use their free time to spend with their families. The bulb boy will need a painter to paint his house and the money will jump around which is the only thing that can lead to strong economy. With low salaries you achieve only one thing - boost to several ppl income and misery to all others. Several ppl as much as they can spend can't spend as much as the whole country inside the same. It sooner or later will lead to this country economical collapse, not to mention the demographical side.

Anyway I don't have time for more - excuse my poor English :)
 

DeletedUser

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This is great and all but would it not be better/easier if the people earning minimum wage just didn't get taxed (or taxed as heavy). It would be an "increase" to the extent that they take home more of the money they earned. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I surely must be if it isn't already done.
I'd be very surprised if that wasn't already in place, but I don't know US regulations well enough. I think someone mentioned something earlier in the thread about it.



NASA are you serious :p This country is running out of funding for Social Security and Medicare right now :D
It was a funny jab at NASA's laughably small budget but yes, I am actually dead serious. Take a look at my post in the space exploration thread why funding NASA is extremely important. A small fraction of the welfare budgets and such could almost double NASA's budget.

Really I don't care to debate this topic very much. I am the age where all I can get is minimum wage basically so I am happy with any improvements you guys can come up with. Will say though that the minimum wage increase might not affect the big corporation, but the local small business that barely survives as it is would be hurt more by an increase to $15.

Actually come to think of it I am not even sure if $15 is a feasible living wage in NYC either.
Well to be fair, you can't expect to live in one of the most expensive places in the US when working a minimum wage job. Sacrifices have to be made.

Don't usually partake in debates but can't help myself here, it will be short and sweet as I don't plan on rambling on. Bottom line is the minimum wage should not be imcreased. First of all the jobs in which you are paid a minimum wage, are not jobs that are supposed to support a family. These jobs are great for young students to earn some money, while getting experience working a real job. Now with that being said, more economical reasons why it shouldn't be raised would be because the risk of inflation. With businesses being forced to up the minimum wage pay, they may be forced to raise there prices, I know many think "McDonalds has so much money they wouldn't see a difference" well correct, however most chains are ran by franchise owners, people who basically own the store, I'm not quite sure how this whole process works, but McDonald employees' pay checks don't come from the Ronald McDonald bank account. This forces the store owner to keep up, and they may not be able to, forcing a business to potentially shut down, thus decreasing employment. Should not be done
It's like you ignored the entire thread? Let's reiterate some points which you apparently glared over.
- It would affect 10% of the workforce, of which the large majority are over the age of 20. So no, not only students would be affected.
- It would have no discernible effect on employment. No lay-offs.
- It would actually mean MORE money flowing into the economy, people would be able to buy more stuff, so no, prices would not increase.
 

DeletedUser30636

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I'd be very surprised if that wasn't already in place, but I don't know US regulations well enough. I think someone mentioned something earlier in the thread about it.



It was a funny jab at NASA's laughably small budget but yes, I am actually dead serious. Take a look at my post in the space exploration thread why funding NASA is extremely important. A small fraction of the welfare budgets and such could almost double NASA's budget.


Well to be fair, you can't expect to live in one of the most expensive places in the US when working a minimum wage job. Sacrifices have to be made.


It's like you ignored the entire thread? Let's reiterate some points which you apparently glared over.
- It would affect 10% of the workforce, of which the large majority are over the age of 20. So no, not only students would be affected.
- It would have no discernible effect on employment. No lay-offs.
- It would actually mean MORE money flowing into the economy, people would be able to buy more stuff, so no, prices would not increase.

You can't know those things? Obviously the first one yea. But the last two are literally all speculation, that's what we're all doing, he gave us two sides of the argument, I chose one. Nothing was ignored. But back to the first point, it had nothing to do with only students being effected, the point is that a 35 year old man shouldn't be able to flip burgers at McDonald's and live at least somewhat comfortablely. You can't know whether the would be no layoffs, it makes sense why there would be, and how would more money flow into the economy? The employer would just be paying more not earning more, which again he may not be able to keep up, raising the minimum wage won't give you customers to compensate, now he's left half employed, and it's a Saturday afternoon in the summer, they're not going to be able to keep up with the customers, to many issues, there's nothing wrong with the minimum wage
 

DeletedUser

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I can't know these things, true. However I trust economists and researcher, which I have cited above, much more than your assumptions. (or my own for that matter) That's the difference between our claims, one of us backed them up and the others are yours.

More money will flow because people who normally have to live frugally and save on everything would now be able to spend significantly more.

Also no issue? Then what do you think about the graph I posted above showing that because of the static minimum wage, inflation has caused a drastic drop in actual purchasing power for the minimum wage workers. This drop will only get worse the longer it remains unchanged. In another 10 years people might literally be unable to buy enough food to stay alive. This is a massive issue. At the very least the minimum wage should be adjusted for inflation every year. (Or even 6 months like we have here)
 

DeletedUser

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It's like you ignored the entire thread? Let's reiterate some points which you apparently glared over.
- It would affect 10% of the workforce, of which the large majority are over the age of 20. So no, not only students would be affected.
- It would have no discernible effect on employment. No lay-offs.
- It would actually mean MORE money flowing into the economy, people would be able to buy more stuff, so no, prices would not increase.

Although I personally agree with you and personally think this is correct, this is not as black and white as you are making it out to be. Although there are many great studies claiming no employment effects, there are just as many studies showing negative employment effects. Again, I want to reiterate that I agree with you, but it's not as black and white as you're making it seem
 

DeletedUser

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Although I personally agree with you and personally think this is correct, this is not as black and white as you are making it out to be. Although there are many great studies claiming no employment effects, there are just as many studies showing negative employment effects. Again, I want to reiterate that I agree with you, but it's not as black and white as you're making it seem
I know, a single study never really confirms anything. This is why I specifically linked to a report which "examines the most recent wave of this research – roughly since 2000 – to determine thebest current estimates of the impact of increases in the minimum wage on the employmentprospects of low-wage workers." The result of this report, and therefore the consensus of the recent (thusly most relevant) studies, was that there would be no discernible effect. This wasn't one random study.

EDIT:
The conclusion from said report, for ease of viewing.

66478799aa.png
 
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DeletedUser

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All metastudies can pick and choose the studys they want to include, and although I'm sure this is a reliable study, I'd have to look at the methodology first to be able to truly tell. Additionally, I was saying that you could even find a metastudy of that level that states the exact opposite of what your study says
 

DeletedUser

Guest
You may have the impression from reports on the minimum wage literature that wages and employment aren’t related, and that there is no such thing as labor demand. Unfortunately I think this isn’t an unreasonable impression to take from much of the discussion, but it is in fact incorrect. You’d be hard pressed to find labor economists who think that if McDonald’s had to pay double wages there wouldn’t be a disemployment effect at McDonald’s stores. For one thing there is a difference between wages being artificially pushed up across an entire state’s labor market by the minimum wage and wages being pushed up artificially at an individual firm. So long as McDonald’s acted alone, people would shift some purchases to other fast food chains. In addition, while some economists doubt that the labor demand curve matters for small changes in wages I can promise you they all thing it matters at some point. And doubling of salaries is a big change.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2013/07/30/doubling-mcdonalds-salaries-a-great-way-to-get-workers-replaced-by-machines/

minimum wages jobs should only be kept until the worker can do something more useful with his or her life. Honestly I think the minimum wage in general is a bad idea, but let's not even go there.
 

DeletedUser33530

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having capitalism is a good way to get people's job replaced with robots. That's just how it works.

minimum wages jobs should only be kept until the worker can do something more useful with his or her life.
What does one need to be able to do something better with their life? Money. What do minimum wage worker currently not have a lot of? Money.
So if you are trying to keep minimum wage low to force people to move on in life you are being counter production as you make it nearly impossible.

Although I personally agree with you and personally think this is correct, this is not as black and white as you are making it out to be. Although there are many great studies claiming no employment effects, there are just as many studies showing negative employment effects. Again, I want to reiterate that I agree with you, but it's not as black and white as you're making it seem

such as?
 

DeletedUser

Guest

Neumark, David, and William L. Wascher. Minimum Wages and Employment: A Review of Evidence from the New Minimum Wage Research. Cambridge, MA: National Bureau of Economic Research, 2006. Web.

Although the wide range of estimates is striking, the oft-stated assertion that the new minimum wage research fails to support the traditional view that the minimum wage reduces the employment of low-wage workers is clearly incorrect. Indeed, in our view, the preponderance of the evidence points to disemployment effects. For example, the studies surveyed in this monograph correspond to 102 entries in our summary tables.118 Of these, by our reckoning nearly two-thirds give a relatively consistent (although by no means always statistically significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages, while only eight give a relatively consistent indication of positive employment effects. In addition, we have highlighted in the tables 33 studies (or entries) that we view as providing the most credible evidence; 28 (85 percent) of these point to negative employment effects.119 Moreover, when researchers focus on the least-skilled groups most likely to be adversely affected by minimum wages, the evidence for disemployment effects seems especially strong. In contrast, we see very few—if any—cases where a study provides convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially among the studies that focus on broader groups for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects.

Here's the study if you want to read through it:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w12663.pdf


Additionally, when looking through my sources, I found something else I had previously forgotten about, and that is that it has a minimal effect on poverty. This is because poverty is caused by a lack of employment, not a lack of money being made from a full time job for the most part:

www.cbo.gov/publication/44995
The increased earnings for low-wage workers resulting from the higher minimum wage would total $31 billion, by CBO’s estimate. However, those earnings would not go only to low-income families, because many low-wage workers are not members of low-income families. Just 19 percent of the $31 billion would accrue to families with earnings below the poverty threshold, whereas 29 percent would accrue to families earning more than three times the poverty threshold, CBO estimates.
 
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