Morals of a Deity

DeletedUser8396

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Why is lying wrong? Morally wrong, that is? Murder? Rape? Why is that wrong? If we operate under the assumption that there is a God and further assume that it is the Christian God, then the answer becomes clear on the surface: He gave us rules to follow.

But why are His rules good and why do we have to follow them? What authority does He have to establish a moral code and why are the things listed in that moral code good or bad? Allow me to explain:

First, let me establish God’s authority in establishing rules and His authority to tell us to obey those very rules. In the world where this God exists, He would be the Supreme Being. The most powerful being to exist. This alone allows him to set a moral standard and tell others to obey it due to the fact no one can usurp Him or claim a higher level of intellect to challenge the rules given. Furthermore, assuming this same God created the individuals He is giving the rules to, He then has ownership over the created thing. As His possession, He can do with His possession whatever He wishes. His authority is present.

Secondly, we were given the rules. The 10 Commandments, Leviticus, and others. We were told to obey these rules. Since He has the authority to create them and tell us to obey, we must obey or face the consequences of disobeying His rules.

But why would we be punished? What makes deception, theft, or murder wrong? Are the acts wrong in and of themselves? If so, then why did the actions in Leviticus suddenly become acceptable once again after Christ (if the God is consistent, the morality of the act cannot be changed)? Since the moral code did change, the actions in and of themselves cannot be morally wrong. However, they are wrong because we were told not to do them and that alone. As long as the command that they are wrong is sustained, the acts continue to be wrong. If the command changes, the act is then alright.

Thus, sin is defined as disobeying a command from the Supreme Being, not a moral definition applied universally to an act that applies to God whether He wants the particular act to be considered evil or not. Sin is disobedience.

This then means that anything NOT commanded by the God is not evil. If we then apply this to God, we can see that actions by God Himself are not limited whatsoever by the morality we have applied to us, unless God applied the same commands to Himself.

The argument cannot be used that God is omnibenevolent (all good) and thus would never murder because of the omnibenevolence if He never specifically commanded Himself to murder. If He has not commanded it that He cannot murder, if God murders someone he has committed no wrong and maintains the omnibenevolence.

Therefore, God can apply any code of conduct to Himself which is completely distinct from the code given to humanity. Some would argue this is wrong and immoral- a double standard. In human terms, yes. But if God has not commanded Himself that double standards are morally wrong for Him to commit, He remains perfectly moral in His nature when giving a double standard.

Finally, this means that God is capable of anything Humans deem evil, but He remains good and perfect in doing so because He has not violated a code of conduct given to Himself.

This poses a problem. A significant problem in the eyes of most Christians. If God can commit things we consider vile and evil such as lying, murder, cheating and the like, how can we possibly trust and praise Him for loving us and having our best interests at heart? For this, I turn to a part of the Molinism theory.

The idea is that God, by being perfect, aims to create the best possible world. This best possible world is determined by Him and by His own morality (which, remember, usurps both our own morality and our comprehension). If He then manages to make the best world, even by doing things we would consider evil based on the code of conduct supplied to us, we cannot rightfully judge Him on even our own moral code for any other world created would be worse than the one we live in.
 
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DeletedUser33530

Guest
You know I'm proud to say I think I fully understood one of your works after only reading it one time lol.
 

DeletedUser50332

Guest
If we were to approach this from a Nietzschean perspective, then we would be saying that Man is neither good nor evil, and that we should not be uncritically accepting of notions of morality.

From a Humanist perspective, all people are an end in themselves - as opposed to a means - and as such every person deserves the right to be treated as such.

From an Evolutionary Biological or Evolutionary Psychological perspective, it might seem unwise to kill our fellow species, hence prohibitions on the taking of life.

From a deontological perspective, Kant insists that such notions of the 'Good' are based on duty, obligation and principles of conduct - which are universal.

From an Anthropological perspective, morality evolves from protection of our family and tribe, and later due to territorial or property considerations.

I am just highlighting that there are many different ways of interpreting or understanding morality and ethics, which are interesting to explore. And the important thing is, of course, how we live it.

Or is this another conversation about God?
(I'm happy either way; simply wanting to check!)
 

DeletedUser33530

Guest
If we were to approach this from a Nietzschean perspective, then we would be saying that Man is neither good nor evil, and that we should not be uncritically accepting of notions of morality.
I think that's what we are doing that here.

From a Humanist perspective, all people are an end in themselves - as opposed to a means - and as such every person deserves the right to be treated as such.
but what does that mean?

From an Evolutionary Biological or Evolutionary Psychological perspective, it might seem unwise to kill our fellow species, hence prohibitions on the taking of life.
most top predators will fight and possibly kill each other for territory or mates. Even pack hunter will do this with other packs or "lone wolfs".

From a deontological perspective, Kant insists that such notions of the 'Good' are based on duty, obligation and principles of conduct - which are universal.
given that concepts duty, obligation and principales of conduct can vary a lot from just me to my neighbor... No they are not universal.

From an Anthropological perspective, morality evolves from protection of our family and tribe, and later due to territorial or property considerations
yeah more or less. However this morality would justify killing, stealing, and probably rape.

I am just highlighting that there are many different ways of interpreting or understanding morality and ethics, which are interesting to explore. And the important thing is, of course, how we live it.
yes but none of those ways actually create " justified" (for lack of better words) moral codes. All those morals are really just the morals of one man forced on another in the long run.

Or is this another conversation about God?
(I'm happy either way; simply wanting to check!)
it's both

In relation to this thread about God and morality, then I would welcome views on this article in that covers both from the BBC: "Is the Pope a Communist"?

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33024951

In relation to a thread about morals and God you are citing a reporter's view of a man's political beliefs. How is that relevant?
 
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DeletedUser33530

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I should have explained earlier why I think that this is of interest to this discussion. Essentially, it talks about Pope Francis having very different ethics to those of Pope John Paul II.

Yeah but how is that relevant to this topic? Sure it shows everyone has different moral views but that was already known.
 

DeletedUser50332

Guest
Yeah but how is that relevant to this topic? Sure it shows everyone has different moral views but that was already known.

Perhaps it is not directly relevant to the topic? However, I was just wanting to suggest that the topic could be opened out to discussion as to where we draw our ethics from. The example of the Pope was only of interest because - presumably - their religious training was the same, so how else might we account for their divergent ethics?

(Of course, if its not of interest, then please ignore)
 

DeletedUser33530

Guest
Perhaps it is not directly relevant to the topic? However, I was just wanting to suggest that the topic could be opened out to discussion as to where we draw our ethics from. The example of the Pope was only of interest because - presumably - their religious training was the same, so how else might we account for their divergent ethics?

(Of course, if its not of interest, then please ignore)
Do you seriously not know the answer to that. Seriously? I'm not even joking please tell me that you know the answer to that.


Also I suppose your ethics influence your political views but we can't really tell if both popes has extremely different views based on that article. The whole "the pope is communism theory" appears to be based off one quote from the pope and a bunch of idiots making vague statements with no facts to back them up.
 
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DeletedUser33530

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Is that the article that Rhizone9 original posted? If not all my prior comments on that article still stand.
 

DeletedUser40768

Guest
Yeah but how is that relevant to this topic? Sure it shows everyone has different moral views but that was already known.

^This

Hello CoD

I have listened to the initial BBC R4 broadcast entitled "Is the Pope a Communist" yesterday evening. Here is a link http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/programmes/a-z/by/Is%20the%20pope%20a%20communist/player

I would like to thank Rhizone9 for reminding me of this prog. It is interesting. Perhaps CoD you should listen to it before you state anything further.

Wouldn't this just be a more dragged out version of the article. I will listen to it when I get the chance, likely won't be today.
 
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