Passed Naval Tactics

-Achilles-

<a href="http://forum.en.grepolis.com/showthread.p
I've had this idea almost complete on my computer for about a year and a half but never posting so now it finally sees the light. :D

Proposal: Introduce naval tactics to spice up naval combat.


Have you Checked the DNS and PSI lists in the Archives? Is this idea similar to one that has been previously suggested?: Yes, maybe... yes? :eek:


Reason: I think it fair to say that at the moment naval combat is a rather monotonous affair. Due to the limited range of ships and there only being one form of attack (in comparison to land units) variety is hard to come by. As most good players know variety is the key to success in this game and hopefully this idea should add a lot more of it into the naval combat side of things. This idea would also make the triremes stronger and encourage the use of them (adding more variety).


Details: In the lighthouse (could give an extra benefit to the special building) you would be presented with a list of options for naval tactics in use in your city. There would be three boxes which you could change, one for a bireme, one for a light ship and one for a trireme. In those boxes you would have a drop down option on which tactics to use; two for the bireme and one each for the light ships and triremes. These would be as follows;

The Kyklos:

A defensive manoeuvre by biremes against light ships whcih are uses the periplus tactic, however it has a negative effect when faced with trireme diekplous attacks. Works by stopping light ships from swinging round in the periplus and instead can be used to push outwards and batter them back, however it loses out to the seamanship of the trireme crews using the diekplous as it just leaves them static and like sitting ducks.


+10% to defense against light ships using periplus
-10% to defense against triremes using diekplous
+15% to defense against a naval crew with no/defensive tactics.

The Periplus:

Offensive manoeuvre by light ships to flank bireme forces and attack them side on; can be stopped well by kyklos but is strong against bireme lines two deep. How it works is red navy (fire ships) squares up to blue navy (biremes), the outer light ships swing round and attack flank of biremes side on easily destroying them.


+10% to offense against biremes two lines deep
-10% to offense against biremes using kyklos
+15% to offense against naval crews with no/offensive tactics

The Diekplous:

Another offensive manoeuvre which can be carried out by triremes, it is very hard to pull off and thus needs skillful rowing and expert timing only managed by trireme crews. It is very strong against the Kyklos as they are very static with no lines of reinforcement but is suicidal against biremes lined up two deep. How it works;

1) Lead by the flagship it approaches the enemy in a straight line.
2) The trireme (red) turns into an opponent, by quickly backing water on one side, and aided by the bireme’s (blue) momentum shears off its oars leaving it helpless.
3) The trireme then selects a new bireme to attack and sets off to the manoeuvre again leaving the stranded ship to be destroyed by the next trireme in the line, should a blue ship turn to aid its neighbour it will expose its flank and will be rammed.


+15% to offense against biremes using kyklos
-10% to offense against biremes lined two deep.
+20% to offense against naval crews with no/offensive tactics.

Bireme Lines Two Deep:

This is the last naval tactic and the other defensive/bireme one. It is the most simple tactic were the biremes simply line up in rows of two. This formation is effective against triremes using diekplous as if a trireme comes through the line then it is exposed to the second bireme behind. However by lining of two deep the biremes half the length of their line and so can be flanked easily by light ships sing periplus.

+10% to defense against triremes using diekplous.
-10% to defense against light ships using periplus.
+15% to defense against naval crews with no/defensive tactics.

How the Bonuses Work

Each ship would have three defensive/offensive values - kyklos & diekplous/two deep & periplus/standard. The bonuses would be applied in the cities they come from and before they are sent anywhere. For example a bireme using two deep; the base stats are 160/160/160 which then become 176/144/184; this is then multiplied by the amount of ships. In defense the total stats are added up like they are for land units and the naval battle occurs again in the same manner as land battles.


Visual Aids:

See above for images of the tactics (if anyone could trim the perplus down to just the image as my photoshop isn't working that would be cool). However if someone skilled in graphics could create something which shows the manner in which to choose tactics (via lighthouse) that would be very appreciated.


Balance:

Tactics chosen at lighthouse - improves the special building and with the strong bonuses against navies using no tactics then more people will consider cutting their navy size (thermal baths) to improve its power.

Trireme more powerful - the trireme diekplus tactics are a little more powerful than the rest as it is the least most ships and adds an extra incentive. A lot of people would still use the light ships in periplus and the defenders would use the kyklos. However people would cotton on to this and begin using triremes to counter and so again a lot more variety into naval combat.

Tactics stay with ships - the bonuses stay with the individual ships if they are used as support rather than just the city the supporting units are in.

Hydras count as triremes - hydra would share the trireme benefits.


Abuse Prevention:

Can't see much however if anyone spots any then please notify me.


Summary:

Different naval tactics can be selected in the lighthouse to add variety into naval combat and change the strength and weakness of attack and defense.


Cheers,
~Ach
 
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WAVEBREAKER

Guest
Interesting idea, and would indeed 'spice' up Naval combat.

It's a very interesting concept, which I will be supporting for the duration of the idea lasting.

I've been fighting for a makeover of naval combat, as the conventional tactics of LS nuking against BR walls is just simplistic, boring and an inaccurate description of what really happened during heated naval combat.
 

Thomas

Guest
I do like it... :)

It is rather boring atm... But then, that can be a good thing, no? Part of why this game is so great (IMO) is that it is simple.

This is quite a big change, players will have to get used to all the different tactics etc. I think that I would rather see new ships introduced, a faster attacking ship with a slightly lower attacking power and a much slower defensive ship (there is an idea up for this already i believe).
Not sure though... would like to see what other think.
 

-Achilles-

<a href="http://forum.en.grepolis.com/showthread.p
So this has been up for nearly a day and a half and has two replies, so much more this forum. :D
 

Leahkim

Guest
I like this idea a lot. I don't see any arguments against it rather than "this is how it's always been!" which is the worst argument ever. I say change it :)
 

DDfan80

Phrourach
Love it. You really put thought into it and it showed. I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented to the game.
 

Blodughadda

Guest
Wow, thats actually awesome idea.

BUT
Tactics stay with ships - the bonuses stay with the individual ships if they are used as support rather than just the city the supporting units are in.
What happens in conquest, when ppl send birs with both tactics, is the siege then defended by both tactic bonuses? If yes, then the LS/trireme tactics become useless?
 

-Achilles-

<a href="http://forum.en.grepolis.com/showthread.p
What happens in conquest, when ppl send birs with both tactics, is the siege then defended by both tactic bonuses? If yes, then the LS/trireme tactics become useless?
Thats a very good point; I think it would be fair to say that in that case all defensive tactics would be wiped out, the defender will have to co-ordinate what tactics they use, if there is only one bireme tactic affected the ships in the harbour then it sticks however if there are two then they wipe each other out and the attacker gets the 30% bonus.
 

Thrillology

Phrourach
I don't like this idea because it's not sticking with the style of Grepolis. If they were to have land tactics, then possibly, but then Grepolis would be turning into FireFly Studio's game which is already like this with land combat.

Grepolis is a little basic, all you need is a little math (potentially not even needing it if you're an adviser user), tons of luck, and all battles are attacking cities. Also, ships "move through islands" meaning that ships aren't affected by islands being in the way, and land troops aren't affected by bays being in the way. That's how basic troop movement is, and with ships there's only the breakthrough attack to allow transports to get through.

That +20% to lightships in the first tactic is overpowered, and one bireme could easily kill two lightships. Alliances should provide thousands of biremes to allow such ratios, and if alliances send thousands of biremes to a city, lightships will never work and triremes are simply too expensive and easy to kill off.

+20% to offense against biremes two lines deep
-20% to offense against biremes using kyklos
+30% to offense against naval crews with no/offensive tactics
Lightships are now going to be killed at insane ratios of 10 lightships losing to one bireme because lightships will fight with -20% power, and most players are likely to use that defensive formation with the biremes. +30% agains navies with no offensive tactics? Now the lightships go from NEGATIVE -40% to -10%. Still terrible.

And the third one, absolutely no purpose since no one will attack with triremes anyways.


As for the second one, that's the worst. The only way to take minimal losses from such an attack would be to counter it with the second option because of its potential +60% bonus, then with a captain (from +60% to +80%!), lightships will become extremely powerful and god-like.

Sorry, but I must say 'no'. It's unbalanced and leans towards another MMO that isn't that much like Grepolis (but is an RTS-style like Grepolis) and is complex, it would be almost like going near "stealing" their gameplay styles.
 

ImPreeetySure

Phrourach
Lightships are now going to be killed at insane ratios of 10 lightships losing to one bireme because lightships will fight with -20% power, and most players are likely to use that defensive formation with the biremes. +30% agains navies with no offensive tactics? Now the lightships go from NEGATIVE -40% to -10%. Still terrible.
Actually, it would be +30% because the brims would have no tactics, they get + if they are either attacking a fleet with no tactics or with offensive tactics such as the LS one. So it only loses against biremes with kyklos.

And the third one, absolutely no purpose since no one will attack with triremes anyways.
Well you might not but if these tactics came up on a spy report it would be useful to know, maybe players will make trireme nuke city/s and get them used?


As for the second one, that's the worst. The only way to take minimal losses from such an attack would be to counter it with the second option because of its potential +60% bonus, then with a captain (from +60% to +80%!), lightships will become extremely powerful and god-like.
Didn't you say Lightships would become extremely unpowerful in your first argument. The captain is not unbalancing the game either because the defender can have the captain as well. Its called Premium
 

Miserable Crow

Guest
I like this idea, none the least of which because it would actually make you consider building lighthouse over thermal baths. But, to add a newbie's perspective (just started playing in January) this is a little hard to understand. It took me a month to actually 'get' grepolis, and I actively went and read all the forum Q&A, wikis, and guides. Tons of players don't go that far as I'm sure everyone's seen with attacking with swords, not escorting with LS, building divine envoys, etc. It makes complete sense. Grepolis is a game and the majority of people who play it are looking for a fun time, not rocket science.

So while this idea will certainly spice things up for elite players, I'm worried about the other 80% (or fewer?) who wouldn't really pay attention to the rather long explanation and it'll just put them at even more of a disadvantage for experienced players. We eventually have to learn blunt/sharp/ranged attacks because it's vital, but since this naval thing is only relevant if you research lighthouse, I know I personally might just skip it entirely because it seems like too much work.

Anyhow, this is very well thought out! + rep your way even though my repping power is quite low.
 

Leahkim

Guest
Hmm. Well, I do like the idea. I agree with you that the current battles are somewhat droll. But I think the effects of these tactics need to be reduced some. Other than that, I would love for the idea to be implemented.
 

-Achilles-

<a href="http://forum.en.grepolis.com/showthread.p
Hmm. Well, I do like the idea. I agree with you that the current battles are somewhat droll. But I think the effects of these tactics need to be reduced some. Other than that, I would love for the idea to be implemented.
What recommendations for values do you suggest? :)