Nukes vs Mixed

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
I'm a bit if a numbers freak and so I've done the maths, I've run the experiments, and I've spent over a year fighting through a turtled ocean. Here is what I find to be the truth to the above questions...

Pure nukes: always stronger than a mixed nuke. 2,000 ranged damage will kill more than 1,000 ranged + 1,000 blunt damage.

Pure (sling) nukes vs unknown defenses: sling nukes are the best way 90% of the time. Even when the defense is ranged heavy (swords, cerbs, etc...). Their attack power is radically higher than the horse or hoplite. Most defenses, late game and in stacked cities, are not so ranged heavy as to outweigh the slinger's extra attack power. And when they are, typically not by so much that you'd want to keep around a less efficient nuke just to gain what is typically a very slight edge. You can always turn a sling nuke into a horse nuke after the slingers die if you KNOW the next city you're attacking will be weak vs blunt but why bother? 90% of the time, you'll still want those slingers. Let's not forget slingers also leave behind wood and silver for LS, are produced quicker than the others, and cost less in total resources. Pure nukes = stronger nukes and slingers are ALMOST always best. Of course we keep a spare horse or manticore nuke around just to keep them honest...

Fast trans vs slow trans: of course it's all about speed but if you really think about it, it's about how many cities that speed allows you to use within a colony ship's TT. If your CS TT is three hours, you've got to be able to pack a punch within that time frame. Faster TT's for your OGT nukes means more cities can reach in time. That's the advantage. The disadvantage is the extra FS they eat up. Provided you've researched bunks, a 1600 slinger nuke will need either (and I'm doing this math in my head btw) 60 slow trans, or 100 fast trans. The difference in farm space is only about 140 or so in favor of the slow trans. I'd give that 140 FS up six times over to have six full nukes instead of three within range to clear before my Cs... Easy peasy japanesy. No question.

OGT and catapults: correct mix depends on what kind of nuke accompanies them. Since we are typically talking about slinger/cat nukes, I'll use them as the example. You want 10 catapults per 300 slingers (or 10 cats per 6,900 attack damage, regardless of sharp,, blunt, etc... BUT, if we then take into account that catapults are themselves defined as a ranged attackers, you'll also have to take into account that they naturally are more effective in conjunction with slingers because of this!). In pre 4th gen worlds, before all your fancy heroes and extra farm levels (not to mention the early 2013 update that added some breakthrough ability to all LS/TS combos) my typical nukes were about 50 LS, 1200 slings, and forty cats. Of course, I stopped using cats a LONG time ago because you're essentially just breaking a wall that would otherwise protect your Cs troops from a land snipe, myth snipe, or a full on siege break. Breaking walls after a certain point is worthless... My favorite are the guys that have been playing for years and still send cats along with their CS. As if once they land, having less wall could possibly be a good thing for them... Lol.

Think I've covered all the logic-atrocities I've read in this thread. Might have to go back and read some of the posts though. Do keep in mind that this info is only geared toward conquer worlds. I do not play revolt and won't waste my time trying to figure out how that changes anything, sorry.
 

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
sorry your totaly wrong there are better defences than swrods archers and hops and pure nukes are only good if you know what your hitting in attack
send any pure nuke against a 25 wall and it will fail send it with cats and it will do better
send a pure nuke against a def that is strong to that particuler nuke and its an epic fail

mixed nukes improve performance and edge your bets finding the correct formate is key and im not giving that away:pro:
This is logic-atrocity! There is no formula. This is math, not chemistry. There is no defense where slingers and horse can possibly be MORE EFFECTIVE than a full nuke comprised of one or the other... Of course cats are more effective if there is a wall but if there are more than a few thousand troops behind a maxed wall, then your cats are in fact a waste because they will not deteriorate the wall at all. Not to be a negative Ned, but the things you said that ARE true, kinda go without saying...
 

Zero Point

Phrourach
This is logic-atrocity! There is no formula. This is math, not chemistry. There is no defense where slingers and horse can possibly be MORE EFFECTIVE than a full nuke comprised of one or the other... Of course cats are more effective if there is a wall but if there are more than a few thousand troops behind a maxed wall, then your cats are in fact a waste because they will not deteriorate the wall at all. Not to be a negative Ned, but the things you said that ARE true, kinda go without saying...
lol its ok if you cant work it out but that does not make me wrong!

also it apears your only quoting conquest in your findings
 

Jorisva1

Polemarch
I believe these guides aren't accurate.

As far as I remember there was a unit strength rebalance in early 2013. So some of these values could've changed.
I'd check it before blindy taking the guide for granted ;)
 

Djrlol

Phrourach
The rebalance is included in cobblemix I believe as he updated but the next rebalance only makes horse slightly stronger anyway but the math and actual guide for players still stands as pretty much definitive guide
 
I believe these guides aren't accurate.

As far as I remember there was a unit strength rebalance in early 2013. So some of these values could've changed.
I'd check it before blindy taking the guide for granted ;)
Well i don't really play anymore. I'm basically just too lazy to log on, end my VM, and hit delete.
 

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
If you read the guide (by shadow magic) that cobble refers you to, it's in agreement of pure nukes being the most efficient... Mixing nukes isn't going to kill your plan, it's just not as good is all. Some of these guides are out of date, some are written by people who shouldn't be writing guides. I mean, this cobble guy is comparing manticores to medusas. That's apples to oranges... Manticores are a highly mobile sniping or Cerberus clearing unit. Medusas are Cs escort units... I read this guide years ago and while interesting, not of much use.
 

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
Maybe I should use this time between worlds constructively and write my own guide on the wiki. God knows the grepo wiki is useless...
 

Zero Point

Phrourach
nuke making 101

every thing is relivent and proportional !

the ratio between cats and wall
the effectivness of cats and what attack troops used
the ammount of ls used as escort to optimise transports hitting the shore
what transport ships optimise effectivity
what troops are most effective against the enemy either known or blind

so first attack 40 cats is optimal against a full wall +tower
all attacks are best with 10/12 cats
cats effect walls regardless of if they drop them

cats work best with slingers so always send majority slingers with an attack to optimise the effectivness of cat

the more ls sent with a nuke the more transports reach shore (there is an optimum ratio)

for speed use fast transports for pure attack power use slow

to spread your odds on blind attacks or to optimise wall deteriation verses troop demise use either hops or horse in conjunction with slingers

so guys thats the master class its up to you to work out the ratios to farm spaces that optimise attacks

:eek::p:pro::cool:
 

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
That kinda raises more questions than it does answers and IMO, still not exactly right. I think we are thinking about this all wrong. We are thinking in terms of one nuke and how to make that nuke most effective. That's never the case in practice. Even if it's just you sending one nuke, there's usually one or two players also sending nukes. So if we know that pure nukes are most effective, the question would then be what kind of nuke would be most effective vs the city's local support plus whatever additional support the opponent might receive. That being an unknown factor may lead you to believe a sling nuke might not be most effective, so here's the workaround...

As I mentioned before, sling nukes are almost always best when considering effectiveness, cost, the specific resources used, rebuild time, etc... But if you want to cover your bases, you want a horse nuke or hop/manticore nuke around for those times when slingers are not the best. You still want pure nukes, you just want to have more than one kind of nuke in your arsenal. That's just common sense. I think we just got to thinking too specifically about the question.

Just for some homework, try this in your agora, what hits ANY defense harder, a nuke of 1500 slingers and a nuke of 500 horses, or two nukes of 750 slings and 250 horses. The pure nukes will be more effective. Then the question will be which one (optimally speaking) you want to hit first. That's getting too specific though...
 
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Zero Point

Phrourach
That kinda raises more questions than it does answers and IMO, still not exactly right. I think we are thinking about this all wrong. We are thinking in terms of one nuke and how to make that nuke most effective. That's never the case in practice. Even if it's just you sending one nuke, there's usually one or two players also sending nukes. So if we know that pure nukes are most effective
well thats dismissive and jumps to assumptions.

pure nukes are not the best across the board, the maths that proves they are is flawed its like newtownian physics verses string theory

1 + 1 = 2 basic maths, this is ok for learners but master class players factor in far more

while i must concede that pure slinger nukes are probs best for hitting masssive stacks, that is just one aspect of the game. though a much more important part in conquest.

in revolt walls are far more important to drop

to be honest my observations on nukes mixed or pure is based around improving the effectivness of cats while optimising attacking troops effectivity. something essential on revolt servers and on initial attacks.

there is no one answer solution to this question as each senario has optimums but the 3 cases ive listed cover most attacks.

initial attack one on one mixed

most revolt server attacks mixed (to drop walls)

pre stacked city pure
 

Zarun

Phrourach
I'd argue but others are already doing the job for me lol. So I'll just make a couple statements here:

Think I can look at my 3 consecutive AotD's from Nysa as evidence that I know what I'm doing.

With that: build mixed, you're almost never going to have a reliable spy report to use a pure nuke efficiently and good defenders will not leave themselves weak to a single attacking type anyway.
 

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
Sorry, I'm not trying to insult anyone's experience , I just love to debate. I could have a cup of coffee and be the devil's advocate all day. Lol.

Back to zero, it's not dismissive at all or presumptuous to assume more than one person or more than one ogt city will be used. If it is, you're playing with the wrong folks. Just for grins, please explain how this is anything like Newtonian physics or string theory. Lol. Also, since I've been called out on the revolt thing twice now, I will mention my advice is not tailored to revolt worlds (as I've mentioned) but the catapult info still holds true regardless. Sorry, I think somewhere back there I may have frowned on the use of catapults in general. That was silly of me. They are practically useless in conquest worlds. I hope we don't consider a slinger/catapult nuke a "mixed" ogt nuke. That's like calling slingers with an LS escort mixed. Although, a pure nuke will still increase the effectiveness of catapults unless a defend is tailored to your attack type, which is unlikely in reality. I'd like to think I'm a genius and can perfectly predict who will be launching at me and from which cities so I can route his horse nuke, but in reality the best I'm capable of is spiking ogt nukes with biremes and my ensemble of ways to kill a Cs. No one is that good man. Most defenses and LTS/DGT nuke cities will be fairly rounded with emphasis on ranged defense and a little extra in sharp to defend siege breaks via manticore. That's what you'll encounter if you're playing against a thinking opponent or an alliance with a well thought out plan.

This has been my strategy through the years, it has not failed me. Pure nukes of various different types is what you want. They pack a bigger punch, increase catapult efficiency, and in the case of slingers, your most used infantry, cut the cost in terms of resources and time in addition to being a very strong ogt nuke. Sure, a defense can be tailored to defend against this, but as the attacker, you have the advantage of being able to restructure your offense as needed after each conk. Not to mention you should almost never build seven pure nukes of the same type. That leaves you too predictable.
 

Cool-Aid

Phrourach
And to TGXar, if you get a spy report, and your pure nuke isn't going to be the absolute best nuke for the job, you're still going to use it. I'd rather hit a city blind with a slinger nuke than with a sling/horse nuke considering that because he may have extra ranged defense in the city does not mean he is weak to horse. And if he IS weak to one of those two, the benefit gained may still not outweigh the what you will lose if his defense is stronger against the other attack type. And suppose you use all three attack types in one nuke, the opponents best defense is a well rounded one. The most common defenses in the game are the 800sw/200ar/500hop (I'm recalling that one off the top of my head, I don't use it. I prefer my own mix of 500sw/800ar/200cha. It's not quite as effective, but much easier to build and rebuild due to the use of stone and tailors your defense to be a bit stronger against ranged attacks and ever so slightly better against sharps too.). Point being, a three way mix gives up your best advantage as an attacker AND makes the defenders job easier...
 

Zarun

Phrourach
Yea you bring up good points.

But Queen Viv proved to us in Nysa that simming is the way to win grepo so this discussion is kinda moot.

She was #1 rank and not even in the top 30 in ABP. Got most of her culture points from festivals, which is a more efficient way of gaining CP if you do the math. You won't gain much respect doing it but you can run festivals all the way to the top.

Just thought that was worth pointing out. Unless you can generate 300 ABP per 180 slingers built, festivals are the way to go for opening up these new city slots.
 

Zero Point

Phrourach
I suppose people will have to deside for themselves what facts to beleive!

my advise is check out the next revolt server when launched you wont struggle to find me using my grep jitsu tactics to there full potential :pro: