Pnp Ocean 44

Bearissimus

Phrourach
I've set this as a PnP thread even though there's no actual politics or propaganda planned in this post, merely some postulations - I suspect we'll see plenty in any replies, though, and many people might consider it to be so in the first place...

I believe that with the exception of the Check Mate situation, O44 has seen everything that's interesting in this world. We've seen more than a few top 12 alliances come and go here and some fierce fighting - Guardians of Hades, for example, are still at 18 in the DBP charts despite not existing for a month or more; Grim Reapers were a force for a while. Fire breathing Kittens were a force in the north, Friggin Spiders (and their predecessors) in the south. It's been the primary battleground for the world, and if you were to take a snapshot as at now, you would say it's a war BD have clearly won, thanks to a combination of aggressive fighting and merger with FBK. They have 377 cities here, the next closest, and the only other one over 100, is Knights at 117. Black Legion have 73 as the only other sizeable number, the rest are either barely in double figures or worse. So on the face of it, things look rather good for BD.

But take a look at the map: http://grepointel.com/map.php?server=en75&ref=mnecgk246z2uigicy5nvjilrom3n5meebewl1n

And the issues start to become a lot clearer. Where is BD's expansion room? Through one of the other alliances. They've tried beating Black Legion, but perhaps against all the odds, failed to date. And if they were to, they would run straight into Wargasm, which would be interesting for sure - we might find out what Wargasm are made of. An assault on Knghts might be interesting, but it's hard to see a major result there as they would have a long way to go. South, there's Lost Souls - unlikely in the extreme as things stand. Which leaves North - and Honour - as the most obvious route, especially for the former FBKs.

Now what do we know about BD? Highly aggressive, excellent fighters, but uncomfortable (although fairly effective) in defence, and not at all the sort of alliance anyone would trust as a result - not that they're particularly dishonest people, merely that they're too aggressively-minded to be happy in a pact. That makes them a threat to anyone around them, and also a worthy opponent. What are BD's realistic options? Militarily, fight for control of O44, but what then? Head north is the only real military solution. Diplomatically, pacts are out of the question, nobody would trust them. Which leaves mergers. And here, one candidate stands out in terms of numbers, geography and playing style - Friggin Seagulls. They would reinforce the core of "old" BD, and allow a platform for a move on Lost Souls. Of course that doesn't do a lot for the FBK element, and the northern route does little for "old" BD, so most likely it would be both - the two elements of BD being further apart than ever geographically, thanks to the efforts of BL and Knights using the tried and tested wedge-driving procedure. Practically, that might not matter much, but it's perhaps symbolically and psychologically important.

So that's how I see BD's options; but the other alliances won't just stand by and watch. I still think concerted action by all (or even most) of the neigbouring alliances would prove too much for BD, and remove a threat to all - after which, the remaining alliances could fight each other in peace. ;)

Please point out the flaws in my logic, give counter-arguments or different analyses. Or feel free to ignore it completely. ;)
 
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Bearissimus

Phrourach
This is like a war time Lord Haw Haw speech,,,,, Are the knights scared maybe?
Well this one isn't... especially if that's the best you've got. ;)
There's respect for BD, but no fear I've detected.

This isn't official Knights stuff in any way; I have no official (or for that matter, unofficial) position in the alliance, which is actually a nice change. As such, I feel free to share the benefits (or otherwise) of my strategic vision with everyone, as I've no insider knowledge or secrets I can give away. I'm not speaking on behalf of the Knights, but of course my view must be coloured by my perspective from within the alliance. I know it's unusual in Grepo, but I take the view that telling it straight, at least as I see it, is the best policy - nobody ever expects the truth, so it causes confusion. ;)

So if you think it's a load of old cobblers, fine, it probably is, but say why, rather than just calling me names, please. :)
 
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Bearissimus

Phrourach
Foxdog asks a perfectly acceptable question. It does come across like you are trying to get alliances to rally against B.D. To make it easier for the knights.
Does it? I doubt very much if anyone makes serious policy decisions based on posts in the external forums - that sort of thing is done in the electronic version of smoke-filled rooms in my experience, and I've done a fair bit of it - the last thing you do is shout about it in public if you've any sense, so I don't see that one at all, to be honest.

If you were to accuse me of deliberately trying to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of BD players I could understand it better - that would be a much more likely use of the external forums - but genuinely, it's not that either - it really, honestly is simply how I see things possibly panning out, and not having an internal outlet to discuss it in, I've taken it external. The interesting thing, though, is that you probably won't believe me, and will spend time trying to work out my true motives. And that's the diabolical genius of telling the truth in Grepo. ;)
 
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Wred IV

Chiliarch
And the issues start to become a lot clearer. Where is BD's expansion room? Through one of the other alliances. They've tried beating Black Legion, but perhaps against all the odds, failed to date.
All i see looking at the map and keeping in mind Knights long standing pacts is that they are the ones that have no room for expansion. Also the last op they carried out only won them 3 cities after throwing everything at us. and the stats say a similar story


Culture levels are rising and the leaders cant find enough food to feed their stock

Now what do we know about BD? Highly aggressive, excellent fighters, but uncomfortable (although fairly effective) in defence, and not at all the sort of alliance anyone would trust as a result - not that they're particularly dishonest people, merely that they're too aggressively-minded to be happy in a pact.
Many alliances trust us, they know our agenda and its relatively simple to decode. We are not highly aggressive, we are just organized. We have only ever broken 1 pact so far, and i wont go into the details of it.

So that's how I see BD's options; but the other alliances won't just stand by and watch. I still think concerted action by all (or even most) of the neighbouring alliances would prove too much for BD, and remove a threat to all - after which, the remaining alliances could fight each other in peace. ;)
yes if you can get all our neighbors to attack us we will be in trouble, the trick here is to assess the cost and time vs. reward. And thats why organized alliances survive, because they know how to make it difficult and not worth your time. surely a less organized alliance is a better option for most of our neighbors and lucky for us there is just that. Again the only neighbors that have no option but BD is well.... you know ;).

Finally to wrap up, the only thing i understood from this is that Knights are starting to feel the heat, and you can count on us to turn the temperature up some more.
 

Bearissimus

Phrourach
Well I can't speak for the rest of the Knights, but I took that ghost because it put me on an island with 13 BD cities - so if you think that's because I'm starting to feel the heat, you've rather misread the situation. I want to do some sunbathing in the glow of those red flags, but it's not even got much above freezing. I've had to wake some of you up. ;)

So nice attempt, but it's not the Knights with the problems. :)
 

LoWKeY

Phrourach
Dude if you look at your map with us being enemies doesn't it look like our best route is west trough knights to the rim. After that maybe trough your pact alliances that decided to get involved. saying we are overly aggressive in a war game is the same as saying we are to good. By the way you should read my profile in game as you took that ghost on an island with me. Oh wait we have already started trading blows.
 

Bearissimus

Phrourach
Dude if you look at your map with us being enemies doesn't it look like our best route is west trough knights to the rim.
Well no, actually, it really doesn't, that would be a long and painful route compared to going north. But you're more than welcome to try as far as I'm concerned. :)

After that maybe trough your pact alliances that decided to get involved. saying we are overly aggressive in a war game is the same as saying we are to good.
Well that's what I AM saying, that's precisely why I think everyone will want to kick your butts - you're too much of a threat.

By the way you should read my profile in game as you took that ghost on an island with me. Oh wait we have already started trading blows.
I was fully aware who you are, and I was very careful who to attack first - because I knew you would respond. :)

It's gonna be fun. ;)
 

Bearissimus

Phrourach
Your old speak suggests you won't conform to the impending doom:)

“Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death.” —Orwell, 1984
:)

Look, I can't help it if I get enjoyment out of the Grepo version of Knock Down Ginger, I'm just a big kid at heart, and sometimes a bit of mischief on an enemy island is more fun than thinking too hard. ;)
 

Wred IV

Chiliarch
Wred's joking, by the way, B.D. Are ultra aggressive!!
Ultra aggressive towards our enemies, sure we are, no other way to play grepo

Your old speak suggests you won't conform to the impending doom:)

“Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death.” —Orwell, 1984
:D love it. bb likes ur blackwhite attitude.

Well I can't speak for the rest of the Knights, but I took that ghost because it put me on an island with 13 BD cities - so if you think that's because I'm starting to feel the heat, you've rather misread the situation. I want to do some sunbathing in the glow of those red flags, but it's not even got much above freezing. I've had to wake some of you up. ;)

So nice attempt, but it's not the Knights with the problems. :)
We know the positions of these ghosts, i dont think this strategy is well thought out tbh. but thanks for keeping them warm for us.
 

ianmiyster

Phrourach
A very interesting post I would like to try and comeback with a few points.
They have 377 cities here, the next closest, and the only other one over 100, is Knights at 117.
Can I just point out a rather misleading statistic, if you had cities the same size as B.D it would put you at 87 cities. Now I know city points mean nothing in wars but you have taken to the tactic of colonising islands without conquering for position but at the moment they are mostly small and not CS ship ready so don’t help in the war effort.

As for our expansion we have no problem going through other alliances, they provide but well-built cities. But what will knights do you can’t expand out into the rim? There are very few new players and those that do arrive have crippling moral. You can’t move north or south as your pacts own those oceans. Knights have only 1 Option to go through B.D. We have several we could go in any of the 4 directions I would certainly say that looking at the map you’re far more restricted in your movements.

As for B.D’s diplomacy I don’t know where you get our untrustworthiness from. Yes we have an aggressive temperament however we have NEVER been the ones to initiate the attacks from previous pacts unless they themselves ended it. Nor have we breached any terms of a pact. We are very aggressive towards a certain target or two. So if anything I would say given our history pacting with us would actually be a good move if you all wanted to fight in peace. We are not a threat to all we are a threat to our enemies and have never harmed our allies. You seem to always say that every alliance wishes us dead and would be out to get us. But I have seen very little evidence of this (only knights,requiem, honor and BL of the top of my head have ever made a move against us that are around today in force). I’m assuming you’re putting this in the public forum in an attempt to make this happen. Are knights worried about their only expansion being blocked by B.D and could really do with some help?

That is my take on the situation sorry if I have not taken into account any other posts but the first one (have only just read it).

And as you say Please point out the flaws in my logic, give counter-arguments or different analyses.
 
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Bearissimus

Phrourach
A very interesting post I would like to try and comeback with a few points.

Can I just point out a rather misleading statistic, if you had cities the same size as B.D it would put you at 87 cities. Now I know city points mean nothing in wars but you have taken to the tactic of colonising islands without conquering for position but at the moment they are mostly small and not CS ship ready so don’t help in the war effort.
Well what I'm probably supposed to say is that if you want to sim cities, that's up to you. ;)
However, don't know about you, but it's vanishingly rare I build cities up to the max - I build them as far as I need to, which for a war means I really don't need that many CS sources - I need a lot more LS, birs and ALU/DLU. But this really wasn't intended to be willy-waving or the like, rather a genuine attempt to look at the situation, and I wasn't trying to say that the Knights are close in city numbers to BD - quite the opposite, in fact.

As for our expansion we have no problem going through other alliances, they provide but well-built cities. But what will knights do you can’t expand out into the rim? There are very few new players and those that do arrive have crippling moral. You can’t move north or south as your pacts own those oceans. Knights have only 1 Option to go through B.D. We have several we could go in any of the 4 directions I would certainly say that looking at the map you’re far more restricted in your movements.
Certainly O44 is the most interesting route for Knights, but that's largely because of the quality of opposition - there are a surprising number of sizeable targets elsewhere, but frankly they're not as much fun.

As for B.D’s diplomacy I don’t know where you get our untrustworthiness from. Yes we have an aggressive temperament however we have NEVER been the ones to initiate the attacks from previous pacts unless they themselves ended it. Nor have we breached any terms of a pact. We are very aggressive towards a certain target or two. So if anything I would say given our history pacting with us would actually be a good move if you all wanted to fight in peace. We are not a threat to all we are a threat to our enemies and have never harmed our allies. You seem to always say that every alliance wishes us dead and would be out to get us. But I have seen very little evidence of this (only knights,requiem, honor and BL of the top of my head have ever made a move against us that are around today in force).[/quote[

Fair enough. FTR, I wasn't saying you're untrustworthy, but that IMHO not many alliances would like to have you as a neighbour. In terms of Knights moving against you, that's because you took in the FBKs we were already at war with - although I doubt two fighting alliances could've coexisted in peace for long.

I’m assuming you’re putting this in the public forum in an attempt to make this happen. Are knights worried about their only expansion being blocked by B.D and could really do with some help?
I've covered that off in other replies, but no, absolutely not; I won't repeat it all, but ask you to read the other posts, sorry.

That is my take on the situation sorry if I have not taken into account any other posts but the first one (have only just read it).

And as you say Please point out the flaws in my logic, give counter-arguments or different analyses.
And thanks for the reasoned analysis. :)
 

ianmiyster

Phrourach
Certainly O44 is the most interesting route for Knights, but that's largely because of the quality of opposition - there are a surprising number of sizeable targets elsewhere, but frankly they're not as much fun.
I did i quick little search from home sweet home of your top player osemilisa, home sweet home seemed like a fair place to do it from it clearly your core and where a large number of your players reside. There are litterally 13 targets for you to attack if you search an entire ocean in any direction. So are you sure B.D has expansion issues compared to yours?
 

Bearissimus

Phrourach
I did i quick little search from home sweet home of your top player osemilisa, home sweet home seemed like a fair place to do it from it clearly your core and where a large number of your players reside. There are litterally 13 targets for you to attack if you search an entire ocean in any direction. So are you sure B.D has expansion issues compared to yours?
Yup. We've lost a few cities to you this weekend, but taken a lot more - from others. Anyway, you expand from the edges, not the centre.