Player Council 2nd Term: Weekly Updates

[DeletedUser54192]

Right, here we go.

First off, apologies again for the lack of activity for the last few weeks. So, what's happened since the last update?

• Not much progress has been made with regards to inequalities:
  • It took a week just to get permission for posting any details about the response the LCM (Lead Community Manager) gave on September 17th (a response which took at least 2 weeks to turn up in the first place).
    
  • In the response, we were told the following:
    • The CMs do not know what is happening on all the other servers, and the Lead CM doesn't have the time to go and check on all of them. So action will only occur when we chase them about differences. (This was already fairly obvious due to the discrepancies in the actual rules on different servers, but this has removed any hope/possibility of it just being something missed: Inno has clearly stated that the different markets just don't communicate unless forced to.)
    • The differences in rules/etc were explained as being due to the evolution of different servers in terms of behaviour by players (whether players abuse particular aspects of the rules/etc, leading to changes for specific markets).
    • The same explanation was used for the difference in community-driven projects (be they by staff or players), such as the fact that DE got to design a hero that was guaranteed to be put into the game. (It should be noted that we've received no further information as to whether they will balance this out by giving similar opportunities to other markets.)
    • Instant fixes aren't an option, but they will work step-by-step on improving issues. (Despite the fact that fixing differences like the Do Not Suggest list were very quick once we pushed properly in the EN market directly.)
    • They wanted to improve communication with players (I will come onto their idea for this later).
    • The LCM stated that it was within the regulations to use servers like NL as guinea pigs (I'm paraphrasing - I can provide the LCM's full explanation to people individually if they wish), because of the rules that everyone agreed to when they joined the game.
    • A later response had an interesting part: they attempted to tell us that we can't give our opinions on their actions/responses unless we post all the information they've given us. This was a little controversial, given that the NDA mentions nothing about not being allowed to express our opinions about their responses (even if they don't give us permission to discuss the content of the responses), and there has been a history of delayed responses about whether we have permission to post their responses.
      
    • Another response in this thread included this little gem: "One exception are topics of game rules, punishments and the way teams are working, as I already explicitly mentioned in a few spots - those are not the topics, which we should be spending time on. Let me worry about it and let's focus here on improving the game features." So yes, as I've told people before, we cannot discuss rules/etc with the staff. However, I feel I ought to say that I (and several other members of the council) disagree with the claim that the council shouldn't spend time on moderation/etc because it's being handled by the staff.
  • Now that my activity has improved a bit, I will be pushing for answers on new inequality issues, such as the prices of packages (the same package on the same server is much more expensive for some players than for others, depending on what country they are from).
• We had another post from the staff giving reasons for their regular lack/lateness of response to the questions/issues we raise. They state that they are reading and considering everything we post, and it is due to the number of other tasks that we do not receive quick responses. (The fact that they don't usually reply to threads even to say "we have read this and are discussing it" has been avoided on numerous occasions across different threads.)
• Communication errors with regards to the status of the few test Domination worlds on live markets was addressed.
• We have seen a positive reaction in one case: that of turning on/off award notifications (something which was suggested to improve performance, due to the lag that large numbers of notifications can cause). The lead developer has stated that he will be working on a system to make the following actions have on/off switches for their notifications. We have not been given a timescale for it's design/implementation, but they seemed positive about the idea which is a good sign.
  • Awards
  • Spy reports
  • Combat reports
    
  • Combat support reports
  • Returning supports
  • Incoming supports
  • Supports withdrawing
  • Spell cast
• Alert delay has been discussed with the staff (as a possible way of reducing the impact of send-and-recall alarm spam). They would like to find a way of implementing such a system if possible. The first priority is to fix the existing notifications issues, however. They have said that they are working on this, but that the cause seems hard to locate. How they intend to fix these issues hasn't been explained in detail, and we are waiting to be given permission on whether we can share the information we have been told.
• There's ongoing debate about the Community Backlog, and the way in which the ideas on that list are addressed/implemented/etc.
• STOMT was suggested by the LCM as an alternative communications platform for players to talk to the staff team about their ideas/issues/etc. This idea was strongly argued against by the council, for multiple reasons:
  • Most players don't want to be using lots of platforms (it's hard enough to get Skype people onto Discord and vice versa), so adding another platform isn't going to be popular.
  • STOMT has serious disadvantages: it consists of players posting on a "wall" with simple comments, which the staff would then read. There is no way for players to communicate with each other on the platform, meaning that it would be worse as a discussion platform than the forums are (and STOMT was suggested as an alternative to Discord channels, when Discord was chosen because it allowed better discussion than the forums).

I think that's all the major developments since my last update. Again, apologies for the inactivity, and I hope to be back to weekly updates. If you have any comments, questions, or anything else, then please use the Discussion thread, or contact me via PM on the forums, on Skype/Discord, or in-game on en106 Gortyn and en108 Istros. Thanks for your patience, and have a good week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello again everyone. This week has been both busier and quieter. I know that sounds confusing, but it'll make sense.

• On the Inner Council forum, there has been very little activity. There has been no staff response to questions raised in multiple threads last week, so there hasn't been much for us to post there.
• The GPC Discord, however, has been a very different matter:
  
  • Events are back again as a key discussion topic, with the arrival of the current event. We're working on some ideas to reduce/remove some of the common sources of complaints.
  • BP-multiplier tokens and friendly troop-killing are still in discussion. This is hard to find a solution to, as most solutions would also negatively impact those who use senses for actual combat, but we are working on it.
  • Myth units and their balance has also been discussed. This was mainly triggered by the event discussion, but has been discussed out of event scenarios as well.

That's all for this week. Thanks for sticking with us, and if you have any questions, you know where to find me. Have a great week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello. Time for the weekly update, but I'm afraid that there isn't really much to update on.

• There have been no posts from the staff all week, to questions that have been posted since at least 8th October. Given the futility of chasing them for updates (believe me, we've tried, and it doesn't seem to hurry them up the vast majority of the time), we're just going to wait 'patiently' until they decide that it's worth honouring us with a reply.
• In the council, we've continued to discuss a lot of the same material as last week: myth rebalancing, events and BP tokens. Myth rebalancing in particular can be a difficult topic to find an easy answer for, due to the 2 different conquest methods.

Apologies for having so little to report back on. Hopefully in the coming week we will see some signs of life from those who say they want our opinions. Any questions, then contact me here on the forums, on Skype/Discord, or in-game on en106 or en108. In the meantime, I hope you all have a fantastic week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello again, everyone. Yet another spectacular week of silence. Here's what has happened in the past week:

• We (US/DE/EN) have posted on the Inner Council forum requesting another Skype call (the aim was to have 3, we've only had 1, and it's nearing the end of our term), and asking some questions about the GPC in general. We hoped this would trigger a response, but apparently not.
• In the meantime, they have announced a new world type for testing on Beta. Sandbox 12 will be a Casual World.
  • What is a Casual World?
    • Each player has 1 unconquerable city. (This city can be changed, with certain limitations.)
    • No endgame, at least at the start of the world.
    • Players can only attack those of a similar size (±20% points).
  • For full details, please see the Wiki page: https://wiki.en.grepolis.com/wiki/Casual_Worlds.
  • The GPC was not asked about this, or informed of it prior to the public announcement on Friday morning (26/10/18). And we've already identified a number of flaws in the design between us. (Something we could have told them if they'd actually asked the group of players that are there to have a say on the evolution of the game.)

So, it's obvious that the InnoGames staff "involved" with the GPC haven't just all suddenly disappeared into thin air. They're still around, they just have no interest in the Council, and apparently no longer even have the effort to pretend otherwise.

We will continue trying to get things done, as we have been doing all term, but given the current state of play I can't make any guarantees that we will be successful. Anyways, if you have any questions you know where to find me, and I hope you all have a great week!

 

[DeletedUser55894]

HY Kal

i am here only to support you. (i am the german IC Member)

every single Word Kal wrote is more than true

a german player wrote a thing on betaforum which is a hard comment BUT it´s in my Opinion the Truth

I really don´t understand why you did not ask for player comments on the concept before coding and introducing it. We have a player council, we have the DevBlog (well, at least we had it before @sieperka killed and silenced that platform(s) within weeks after becoming LCM), and we have local forums where you could have asked for suggestions and advice.

Nothing more to say^^

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Flash Update. A new event, Attack of the Hydra, has been announced this morning on the beta forums. So, what is it?

• It appears to be based on the Hades' Portal event (seen in 2016 and 2017), with a few changes. Hades' Portal was a short event where you had to send troops on missions to obtain stones. When you had collected 6 stones, you received a reward. So what has changed?
  • New name and graphics (obviously), which to be honest seems fairly pointless as there was no reason not to just run Hades Portal again this year.
  • Longer travel times, worse success probabilities. (Just looking at swordsmen, the quest time has been multiplied by 6 and the number of swordsmen has been increased from 15 to 18, while the chances of success are down to 5% from 24%.) In an attempt to compensate for this, the duration of the event has been increased from 3 days to 7 days (which still makes the event harder than it used to be using this troop type).
  • The rewards appear to have been reduced as well: the reward from Hades' Portal was 6x +100 Land Expansion. While the reward hasn't been stated on the wiki page, one of the images of the event shows 3x Land Expansion (size unknown).

As with Casual Worlds, this is another change brought in without any communication to the GPC. While they don't need to run everything past the GPC, this is yet another example of Inno making changes without consulting us, on topics that we are allowed to be involved in. It's even worse when we look at what we were told by the Lead Developer on 30th July. Here's what we were given permission to publish, from my update on 12th August.

3. [In response to a question about the idea of creating another Grepolympia-style event.] ... we are not planning on doing that again for a while, events are not currently our focus.
...
5. [In response to the idea of bringing back the old hunting-style events from very early on in Grepolis.] I think that is for sure something cool to consider, but like I said events are not currently in out focus anymore, we will do adjustments and minor improvements, but working on a new event or bringing back something old is not our focus right now.

So apparently "adjustments and minor improvements" means "new event with new graphics, made significantly more difficult and irritating than the original version". Congratulations, InnoGames!

P.S. Apologies for the extreme cynicism and negativity in this update and other recent updates, but I think it is merited given the way the GPC has been used and treated in recent months.

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Right. Apologies for the update spam, but there's been a lot going on.

The silence has been broken! After a month of silence, we have finally had a response from a member of InnoGames staff. So, what wisdom has been bestowed upon us?

• According to surveys of ex-players, events are not a major cause for players leaving the game. (This was information from before the silence, but permission wasn't given at the time.)
• The "Attack of the Hydra" event was apparently designed last year, during a lull. It will be put onto live markets between the Halloween and Christmas events. They figured that it would make people happy as it's an event that doesn't require gold expenditure. The reason that this event wasn't mentioned when we were given the event development overview from Bernard (Lead Designer), was that they only decided last week to fit it into the schedule. (Prompted by my question as to why they made us look like liars by telling us they wouldn't bring out new events, then brought out a new event.) My question as to why the Attack of the Hydra event is significantly worse than Hades' Portal (longer quests, smaller chance of success, smaller end reward) has been ignored twice.
• No other threads were addressed. (Alert Delay, GDPR/Age Limits, Warfare Packages and the request for a Skype call all failed to receive a response.)

We don't know what triggered communication, but I hope it continues.

Again, I know it's been a few quick updates as events have unfolded, but thank you for sticking with me. Hope you have a good week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello again everyone. Well, so much for the hope of continued communication. There have been no posts from InnoGames staff members in the Inner Council forum since my last update on Monday. This means that the GPC is still waiting on answers to a number of questions, both old and new, which puts us at a bit of an impasse: there is little point in further discussions when those we work with show little intention of following up on what we have already discussed. We have enquired about the future of the GPC (including the US Inner Council representative making enquiries in places other than the forums), but we haven't come across much solid information about what the future holds for us or the GPC in general.

Apologies for the lack of progress, and I hope I will have a more positive update to give next week. If you have any questions, you can find me on Skype, Discord, in-game on en106, en108 or en110, or here on the forums. I hope you all have a great week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello everyone! Another sadly-quiet week for the GPC. What actually happened?

• We received a brief answer on Monday to certain event-related questions. Despite requesting permission to share these answers that same evening, we haven't received a reply since then, so I can't actually share the content of that post.
• All other threads have still not received a reply (this includes questions asked as far back as late September / early October).
• The equality topic has been reopened due to the announcement of the new hero, Perseus. Perseus is obviously based off one of the unsuccessful entries in the same design-a-hero competition on the DE market that gave us Eurybia. (Entry 11 - Perseus version 1, for reference.) This means that, despite seemingly acknowledging the fact that game design opportunities need to be spread across servers, the development team have taken a second hero concept from the DE market, with all other markets still being completely excluded.

Apologies for the lack of progress, but our hands are tied if we can't get reasonable communication levels. You all know by now where to contact me, so feel free to do so if you have any particular questions or just want to talk about anything related to the GPC. Hope you all have a lovely week, and thanks for reading!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello again everyone. Apologies for not posting an update last weekend, but I had a lot going on in real life, and the LCM has gone back to ignoring us (the last reply from a member of InnoGames staff on the hidden council forum was on 5th November, despite numerous questions being posted since then). So, what's happened recently?

• Casual World type brought to EN despite the fact that they haven't fixed the points-range issue that biases the system in favour of larger players. I have made this point elsewhere, but it's relevant here as well. @Baudin Toolan said he'd get an explanation, but I never heard back.
• The "improved" online activity indicator is going ahead, despite major opposition on the public feedback thread on the beta forum from both the GPC and beta market players (in addition to negative comments from the GPC prior to it's actual development, which Inno ignored). The Beta Community Manager's response (or part of it), was to state that beta is more for bug-testing (an interesting issue considering they release unfinished or buggy content onto the live markets, such as the Attack of the Hydra event), than for acting on feedback from forum-users on whether content should be added or not.
• Despite saying that they had taken our feedback on board with regards to the issue of BP-tokens (in which they announced a decrease in event power, particularly removing/drastically reducing BP tokens, then released a package with a large number of BP-tokens for a high price), they've thumbed their noses at us by doing almost exactly the same thing with Land Expansion tokens. I have requested an answer from the LCM on the council forum as to why they have done this, but there is no reply as of yet.

To summarise: the GPC is being ignored again and InnoGames is doing whatever it feels like, regardless of customer opinions. We'll keep trying to get things done, but I have to say I am not particularly hopeful given staff attitudes. If you want to discuss anything with me personally, you know by now where to find me. I hope you all have a great week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello everyone. Sorry for not updating on the weekend, but I was a little busy. As you might have guessed, the InnoGames staff on the hidden council forum are still paying absolutely no attention to us, meaning that we are practically at a dead end: the questions we have asked have gone unanswered, and there seems little point working on more suggestions given how they are treating us.

• Apparently the 20% points range issue has been fixed by requiring that both players are within 20% of each other in order for either to attack the other. I don't know if this has been rolled out just on Beta, or on the live markets as well.

Apologies for the short update, but there's really nothing to talk about if Inno refuses to even act interested in the project that they set up to increase community input into the development of the game. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me in-game, on Skype/Discord, on the forums, etc. Thanks for sticking with us, and I hope you all have a great week!

 

[DeletedUser54192]

Hello again everyone. I know what you're thinking; not another pointless GPC update from Kal. Anyways, this update will be slightly different. Yes, we are still being ignored by InnoGames. It's been over a month since the last staff post on the hidden beta forum (5th November, to be exact), making this an even longer silence than the last one. It's nearing the end of the term now (although this is inexact, as we haven't been given proper information on how or when our term will end), so I doubt we will be seeing much improvement on this lack of communication.

If this seems like a "signing-off", then it sort of is. I will be taking a break from this game for about 4 weeks, and this includes the GPC. I will check in on the forums (both here and the beta forum) if and when I can, but I will be unlikely to post any updates unless there are particular changes that need announcing. When I return, I will post a summary of the achievements of this term of the GPC.

Thank you all for sticking with us over the last few months, both for reading my (often boring and/or negative) updates and for getting involved on the forums and the Discord server. I know it's a little early, but here's wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

 

[DeletedUser36697]

@KalGordon Thank you for your efforts and honesty when communicating with us. To take a stand and relate to us whats truly going on speaks volumes about you, my opinion. I hope all goes well with you and that you are able to re-charge while away from the game.
Your efforts and honesty, have been, are appreciated.

 

[DeletedUser21625]

Thanks Kal for you efforts in holding up the GPC side of things. It is a shame that Innogames does not hold up their end. You have done a great job letting us know what is going on, and in relaying our concerns. It is not your fault that Inno has gone silent. Not for want of you and the rest of the GPC trying, thats for sure.

Do have a break, it will do you good. Happy Christmas holiday to you as well.

 

[DeletedUser54775]

Thanks Kal for you efforts in holding up the GPC side of things. It is a shame that Innogames does not hold up their end. You have done a great job letting us know what is going on, and in relaying our concerns. It is not your fault that Inno has gone silent. Not for want of you and the rest of the GPC trying, thats for sure.

Do have a break, it will do you good. Happy Christmas holiday to you as well.

I would tend to disagree with you. There are a variety of reasons why InnoGames might have gone silent. For one, I do believe that Kal can get quite unreasonable and demanding.

1) He makes claims about representing the customers wishes and interests when in fact he only represents a fraction of that customer base. There are many issues that he raises as critical when many of us are happy with the current state. Inno must be aware of this.

2) He pushes for agendas that would benefit only a particular type of players.

3) He often engages in trifling.

Base on all the above, I am not surprised that InnoGames staff would have gone silent. It must be tedious for them.

Perhaps there are other reasons, but this would be my perception given what I have read and my interactions with him. I do not blame InnoGames on this one.

 

[Raydium88]

I would tend to disagree with you. There are a variety of reasons why InnoGames might have gone silent. For one, I do believe that Kal can get quite unreasonable and demanding.

1) He makes claims about representing the customers wishes and interests when in fact he only represents a fraction of that customer base. There are many issues that he raises as critical when many of us are happy with the current state. Inno must be aware of this.

2) He pushes for agendas that would benefit only a particular type of players.

3) He often engages in trifling.

Base on all the above, I am not surprised that InnoGames staff would have gone silent. It must be tedious for them.

Perhaps there are other reasons, but this would be my perception given what I have read and my interactions with him. I do not blame InnoGames on this one.

Wow... ladies and gents I present you the epiphany of disrespect.

You realize you're pissing on the one person, whom has put in any effort to get something (anything) done? The single voice we've had, so much as to having to apologize on behalf of Inno's silence... and guess what? Not earn a single penny for it!... I think the minimum you owe is some decency and respect.

But instead, your main concern is to antagonize him with your cynicism. Blaming Inno's lack of response on him because you hate his guts? Just low...

For the record, I speak on behalf of many who will agree: they rather have someone pushy, who takes initiates and actually pursues progress... than all those predecessors that have done little to earn their Council status, and probably got it just as bragging rights. If his efforts don't suit you, because of clear personal feuds, don't make it everyone's problem.

Lastly, he needs no defending. I am just pointing out that your comments serve no purpose but to alienate those who put in hard work, and any members that follow... if any. On second thoughts, maybe YOU should apply for GPC? Heck, by all means prove me and everyone wrong... Get something done yourself, will you!?

 

[Rachel.L]

Futbol, there's a big difference between not doing what you want here on the forum and not representing you as a member of GPC for Inno. Having spoken outside the forum to a number of IC members and knowing what they have gone through, you owe them a lot. You owe Kal more since he puts himself out there every week for all of us to yell at. Stop whining about your personal grudges and BE A GROWNUP!!!!

I rarely disagree with you Ray but I don't want this no-action whiner speaking for me on any level. Besides, I'm guessing the failed experiment that is GPC is over.

 

[DeletedUser54775]

I beg to differ with you guys. If InnoGames went silent or non responsive, it is not their fault. It is the fault of the members of the council.
I have interacted with Kal enough and read his stuff in detail. Hence, I can conclude based on that evidence that it is possible that InnoGames staff had had enough from his approach and the approach of the other members.

We have to give credit to InnoGames for trying to engage with the community and the customers. It is too bad that a few over zealous individuals have ruined it.

 

[DeletedUser54339]

I beg to differ with you guys. If InnoGames went silent or non responsive, it is not their fault. It is the fault of the members of the council.
I have interacted with Kal enough and read his stuff in detail. Hence, I can conclude based on that evidence that it is possible that InnoGames staff had had enough from his approach and the approach of the other members.

We have to give credit to InnoGames for trying to engage with the community and the customers. It is too bad that a few over zealous individuals have ruined it.

This is the stupidest thing I have read in any part of the forums.

If you misinterpret 'doing his level best to make sure Grepolis doesn't die on its arse' for being overzealous, then you clearly haven't been reading up.

You owe Kal an apology.

 

[DeletedUser54775]

This is the stupidest thing I have read in any part of the forums.

If you misinterpret 'doing his level best to make sure Grepolis doesn't die on its arse' for being overzealous, then you clearly haven't been reading up.

You owe Kal an apology.

I do not need to apologize for having a different opinion based on the evidence. You can not blame the staff and the company on this one. If you think it carefully, then you will be able to explain the situation.
What is the theory that him and other are putting forward? complete blame on the company and the staff. I do not see it that way. The council and him need to reflect what was their part in the break down in communications.