Player's Council Discussion Thread

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MissusR

Phrourach
I wish you the best of luck and success but I fear you are fighting against windmills. The problem is being ignored because too costly in man power and resources.
 

ThasossCZ

Guest
@Kal Gordon Be sure I absolutely understand you! I was a player 7 years after all. However, we still need to take into account more than one point of view. What does that bullying means for you? What does this means for that in-game mod? Or what does that bullying means for you according to that in-game mod and vice versa? If you're interested in my opinion on the mentioned reported private messages, you can send them to me, of course. But unfortunately, it doesn't change anything on any facts (described by me).

I wonder why does the community want to add more transparency as there is an opportunity to submit a complaint which will be checked by a LCM & CM? Is it really needed to change this? Is it possible to change it without any side effect? I don't think so even though I've thought about this topic many times even before the GPC's been created as it was frustrating to be accused by punished player's team mates... without any option to defend myself. The community is prone to believe mystifications and misunderstandings... that's an obstacle which is quite impossible to deal with.

If we really want to reach via the GPC project something, let's focus on another hot (actual) topics. For example, I've created a topic about a beginner's protection change -> link. There are also UI and research changes incoming or a brand new event is running. That's something which we can affect and where our feedback is wanted. Don't put our effort in something what isn't probably needed at all or it can't be never resolved because of many facts.
 
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Kal Gordon

Phrourach
@Kal Gordon Be sure I absolutely understand you! I was a player 7 years after all. However, we still need to take into account more than one point of view. What does that bullying means for you? What does this means for that in-game mod? Or what does that bullying means for you according to that in-game mod and vice versa? If you're interested in my opinion on the mentioned reported private messages, you can send them to me, of course. But unfortunately, it doesn't change anything on any facts (described by me).
Generic definition of bullying:
There is no legal definition of bullying. But it is usually defined as repeated behaviour which is intended to hurt someone either emotionally or physically, and is often aimed at certain people because of their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation or any other aspect such as appearance or disability.

Then read the Code of Conduct section of the Game rules. Bullying breaks more than 1 of them. And the mod concerned went on to defend the entirety of the concept of bullying, which definitely includes parts that break the very rules that they are meant to be enforcing.

So sexual/violent threats are something that might be acceptable within the rules of Grepolis, according to you? That's pretty worrying. (Also, a single violent threat made by another player was enough to get their account permanently banned, yet multiple cases by this player resulted in no punishment. That demonstrates inconsistencies at best, and plain bias at worst.)


I wonder why does the community want to add more transparency as there is an opportunity to submit a complaint which will be checked by a LCM & CM? Is it really needed to change this? Is it possible to change it without any side effect? I don't think so even though I've thought about this topic many times even before the GPC's been created as it was frustrating to be accused by punished player's team mates... without any option to defend myself. The community is prone to believe mystifications and misunderstandings... that's an obstacle which is quite impossible to deal with.
We need more transparency because the current "transparency" doesn't exist. Both the Community Manager and Co-Community Manager have shown themselves unwilling to even respond to some issues sent to them. We need more transparency because:
- there seems to be no consistent set of punishments, or even verdicts - this at implies inconsistencies or even possible bias, but if we were allowed to know more about what the punishments should be for particular offenses, then the community would be much more willing to accept decisions made by the moderation team.
- the current system allows the moderation team to simply ignore complaints at will. They can simply ignore forum messages or support tickets with no public consequences, because the majority of posts complaining about the moderation team/system are deleted without a trace, even if it is a true and valid complaint.

If we really want to reach via the GPC project something, let's focus on another hot (actual) topics. For example, I've created a topic about a beginner's protection change -> link. There are also UI changes incoming or a brand new event is running. That's something which we can affect and where our feedback is wanted. Don't put our effort in something what isn't probably needed at all or it can't be never resolved because of many facts.
The point of the GPC is to put forward issues raised by the community. They shouldn't focus on changes to moderation to the exclusion of all other suggestions, but nor should this issue be dropped. Inno set up the GPC - if they are not willing to listen to all of it's concerns, then it is nothing more than another wall between Inno and the player base and the GPC itself nothing more than a group of players that Inno can use as scapegoats when the players complain about Inno not listening to the community.

*Screenshotted for future reference.
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
@ThasossCZ, when there are players telling others to kill themselves (explicitly or implicitly), I don't think anyone can argue if that is bullying
however, the application of punishments (whether in forum or IG) for such violations, changes depending on the mod handing out (or not) the punishment
their argument is "nuance"
this is why players want transparency and privacy for players/ inno is not an acceptable answer
a published list of punishments for each rule break has been asked for over and over... a simple request from players

you may feel that other issues are more important but the fact that infringement and moderation has gotten so much response from players must mean that the community has a problem
and tho posts have been changed and butts covered to make to seem like gpc members reported incorrectly, if you read a post from an inno member who was ACTUALLY ON THE INNER COUNCIL CALL (unlike anyone previously posting except our inner council members), you get a clearer picture of what happened
https://devblog.grepolis.com/?p=2225
so while specific inno personnel are not in gpc job prevue, getting thoughts concerning them to inno still is

*got my shot
 

Loves You

Phrourach
I know "Bullying" is an occurrence in the game, however I do not think it should get much attention.
In the past, I have received threats or explicit messages (Of which I cannot post here or my post will be deleted), however that being said, I expect it to occur, as this a war game, and people will get salty.
Whether they get upset over people attacking them when they sleep, taking their starter city, or for other reasons; they the right to be upset, and call me or others names when they are trying to sleep, or enjoy Holiday only to be attacked.
I'm not saying it's right the things that they say, but I know they are nothing but empty threats, and veiled scare tactics.
You have the ability to
A)Keep Respond to Players
B)Stop Responding
C)Block Them

Of which, I find players do not use these options, and are often "Report Happy", especially if it is a player of another team or faction that they have had beef with for a while. An Opportunity to put "Points" on their account is welcomed with open arms.

With regards to transparency for modding. Having been banned once or twice, I found the mods to be reasonable.
When I found out I was banned, I sent in a support ticket asking the reason I was banned, and how long it would be in affect.
I issued an apology, corrected my mistake, and learned not to repeat the same mistake going forward.

With regards to Mod Bias.. I mean.. be honest, regardless of whether you do your best to be "Unbiased", there will, and always be inherent biases, no matter how much you correct for them. There will be mods that you get along well with, and others not so much. Learning to work well with those that you can naturally get along with, and those that are harder to get along with initially is part of being a player and a human being. At the end of the day, especially for our [EN] Server, we are a team(Or at least I think so), to deliver the best experience and community, in contrast to [Those others filthy servers {ru, us, de, fr}] :p
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
seems players are seeing very different versions of the same issue
could be worlds played or the specific problem raised
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
Yes, we do have new inner council members elected - I will be the primary representative, while TSF will be the substitute.
However, we're still waiting on access to the internal forums - so at least for the time being we don't have any further updates to give.
appreciate the info, ty
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
TSF, np
I directed it to you since you mentioned it last but any member was fine and as you said, Phi covered it
just trying to keep the info going as well as the complaining, erm I mean ideas
 

Loves You

Phrourach
What I would like you to ask the Dev's in the Next Meeting:
@Phidippidies @The Smilodon Fatalis


Who is Mr. Pink?
Why does Thorsten not go by Nils anymore?
If they could ride any of the Mythical Units into battle, which unit would they choose?

*These questions are not only important, but will most likely not be covered by a NDA, so you'll have something to report on next time
 
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