Refugee?

[DeletedUser]

Well as the active ones in Kappa are probably aware of already I quit some days ago due to RL not letting me play constantly which was required under my circumstances.

I am still in the game and will probably try other worlds, and because of that I am curious on the opinions of "refugee"-status.

A short recap for those unaware, and a history to my question:
Started in FG, moved to Dark Tide which merged into Dark. For whatever reasons leadership leaves forms 9. I stay thinking it's not a "nice" move to start war on former teammates (but this is a whole thread by itself). I am still in Dark but start talking to Chlllax of moving. One VroD sends a cs attack at one of my cities. I stack and kill it. He claims it was fake, and just a test. No new attacks appear for 4-5 days after which I join Chillax. Suddenly the player in VroD claims me a refugee, and this has an impact (major?) on VroD-Chillax relationship. Though not the only reasons it's one of the reasons leading up to war. This at least points at this being an important and somewhat delicate issue.
There are also some other players from Dark moving with me. I know 2 of them were under attacks from 9 when we joined Chillax, and all of us were very aware that they were to be considered refugees, and they/we received no support from our new alliance for a lengthy period (don't remember but more than a week).

My time in this game is fairly short so forgive me if this is a clear issue for the experienced players.

A refugee:
- is somone under attack already, in some cases just cause a "claim" has been posted on the person.
- this someone moves to a new alliance
Already lots of room for interpretations. What attack, CS only or just any attack? Time period? Are you for entire game a "refugee" after someone attacks you?

I was in epsilon messing around before this, and there some alliances stated more precisely what they considered refugees along with a time period, usually 2-3 days.

Of course the entire issue of "refugees" is a diplomatic one. There is never much reason to honor a refugee claim from an alliance you don't want to keep on good realtions with, and there is always room for interpretation. I just want an opinion.

/Fogge

 

[DeletedUser]

A good insight!

+rep for you

However I would like to add that Dark started the war warmongering against 9 as soon as I left and founded the alliance. Everyone called me a traitor and planned on my cities so there can be no Moaning about the fact that 9 turned on Dark. Dark cast the first stone

You were invited because your a great player, its a shame things worked out how they did

 

[DeletedUser]

Well I actually never attacked anyone in 9 until like 3 weeks later, and even than failed to land any good hits through good playing on your part. I still feel it was not a "nice" move on your part, mainly due to the fact that no explanation was ever given from any of those, leaders and founders, who left Dark.

I do seem to remember you telling me that you planned to come after the "deadweight" in Dark/Shade was part of the moving though, right? Still no matter, that was not the issue of this thread. And war between 9 and Dark was inevtable from the point where more than 2 or players left.

Thanks for the rep and great player remark, but I don't feel I deserve the great player remark...yet.

You are also correct as I think you said elesewhere that things got out of the stale, and into the fun part of the game. Sadly my playing time got less and less after the split so I never had a real chance to battle you .

 

[DeletedUser13729]

It was one of the reasons but there were other things aswell for our outbreak with chillax btw.
The defining of refugee thing is a shady thing and honestly i myself would have issues if there were serious takeover attempts within the last 3 days?

 

[DeletedUser]

It is a rather moot point now, but I actually felt bad about it at the time. You are VroD, right Gary? So you know of who I am speaking.

For some to me entirely strange reason the player in question took offence in some meant to be funny messages and couldn't let it go after that. The Cs attempt seemed genuine up till the part where no support ever showed, and the player than said it was fake. The refugee-screaming after that actually felt insulting and opportunistic, and made me enjoy the game far less.

At least I am glad it was not he only reason cause in that case from my point of view VroD got duped by the player in question.

 

[DeletedUser12512]

Fogge,

I believe there is a thread dedicated to the explanation of what a 'refugee' is, you can search for it I think it is even stickied somewhere.

As to the 9/Dark thing, In my opinon there was ample notification of why the members that left actually did leave. The amount of bleeding hearts and inner bickering over who should do what and when (if ever) destroyed the enjoyment of the game for many, and it made sense to move the players that wanted warfare to a seperate alliance without the hinderance of 'grepo huggers' or inactives stopping any growth potential.

At the time you, hilop, berserxes and golfnut2099 were all invited into 9 but you and the others decided that was not the right move for you. (probably in part because we didn't invite zing) Your justification though should not be that we didn't give reasons for our move as we did voice our view of the situation on several different occassions), or that we fought against the members of dark after we left (we had full access to Dark forums and knew every post that was made within to realize the plans were in place to attack the members of 9 before we had even collected the members from Dark we were bringing with us)

That said, the reasons we left are no differnt then the reasons you left in the long run, and you and your group that went to Chillax don't deserve a 'pass' for your actions. (By this I mean if you want to disagree with the members of 9's reasons for theirs in leaving dark). You knew the war with Dark was in effect, you knew leaving them during wartime would classify you as a refugee even under your definition, and you knew that you would have to fight members of dark after leaving them at some point - so what makes your reasons more justified then ours? Or for that matter why shouldn't VRoD claim you as a refugee to the war (with dark) as all appearances state that you made the move to avoid being a target while in Dark.

Chillax has grown through aquiring refugees, and that does nothing but irritate other alliances that may have had plans on a specific player, they should be aware of this, and you should have spent some time either alone or in a new alliance before joining Chillax to have avoided this conflict.

Can you say why you didn't do this? The immediate perception to those on the outside looking in is that you were looking for the protection of a larger alliance.

 

[DeletedUser]

Dear Atticus,

Well Dark forums was wiped by someone, so I might have missed some posts in there. Was it left in the leaders forum? I for sure never saw an explanation, although I got it in bits and pieces by asking, mostly from Sea and some from Jack. The reasons they gave don't fit with what you are saying above.

I guess you are right with the moving on my/our point. As I said I know 2 of us, were for sure considered refugees when we left, and we pointed that out to Chillax. An inbetwwen stop while we battled you and a statement would have been better and made for an easier move. Though for my part you never attacked me, I never attacked you until way later, if you don't count breaking your sieges on hilop of course. Up until you launched on hilop I saw no signs of war with 9, sure there were "maybe" plans, and probabilities, but no action. Understand that when you launched on hilop I had decided days prior to move to Chillax and were just negotiating to bring my friends along.

As to justifications and reasons this post was not meant to go there but since you did I will respond. There was IMO a big difference in my leaving and you. You were the leaders I were not. I would have probably said no, but I got no chance and was never invited to were plans were made. I simply went along, and when leaders left and no one could or wanted to step up I went looking elsewhere. I don't need to justify my reasons to you or anyone, but it seems you do, but to me it doesn't add up still, sorry.

The point of me being a refugee from your perspective is silly. I am leftover in an alliance you abandonded, and just because I am not as fast a mover as you I am a refugee? Still an inbetween stop while negotiating with Chillax would have been clearer. On the other hand if you knew what happened in Dark you know there was no leadership, no actions, no one did anything during that time so it was as dead already.

As to the last questions, I can't say why I did what I did. Perhaps I should have left Dark, but I was undecided, and Chillax took a while to discuss my case, and then my friends. As this was my first serious play I wasn't into the "refugee"-business, if I was I would have acted otherwise. THAT was the point of starting this thread.

Well now I got your opinion I am more happy I never went with 9, but still sad I never got to put up much of a fight, I guess. And the refugee-business is still very murky....
Still is after reading that post I found stickied about refugees.

 

[DeletedUser]

war?

There are also some reference to "war" in your post. Can you clarify this? Of course the war-declaring from one side is easly seen, by turing the alliance to enemy, but there is no declaration fo war, at least I never saw any inbetween 9 and Dark. So that has to mean war breaks out when you start action. In that case maybe we should count Pendered's feeler attack on me days prior to you leaving as war? Adn then Dark was already at war with VroD when you left.... I never saw them screaming refugee at the guys who were late in joining you, only at the ones who went elsewhere.

 

[DeletedUser12512]

A definition for war I don't have for you, I suppose it would be outlined as multiple mutual attacks.

As for Dark leadership, Hilop was a founder, Zing was a leader, that was your leadership after the people that left to form 9 weren't around.

You had several people that were in leadership roles still in Dark, including berserxes and golfnut3099, among others, because none of them 'stepped up' as you put it is just an example of one of the reasons I left, because everyone preferred to complain rather then act.

I was not a leader, if you recall I stepped down from that position weeks before and posted my stepping down which again makes my leaving Dark, the same as you leaving except I went to a new alliance before war with VRod/Dark existed formally, and you went to Chillax afterwards. VRoD formally declared war on Dark I am told, but again I wasn't in the alliance at that time.

As to your refugee status I am using the generally accepted explanation, that if you leave one alliance that is in war to find sanctuary with another (in most cases larger) alliance your defined as a refugee.

As you said this is your first time playing, so perhaps the nuances of what others consider refugee status weren't clear to you at the time you decided to negotiate your new alliance while you were still in Dark,...which is also poor form and one of hte reasons you would be considered a refugee. If you weren't happy in dark, why didn't you leave before finishing negotiations with Chillax?

Your last point is good, why didn't VRoD consider poeple like Seabreeze who was late joining us also a refugee? Ask him that, I don't have the answer. Perhaps it was because VRoD knew he was joining us, and he left a week or so before you did and the war was underway I don't recall the timeline anmore, I am sure he would.

In the end, your question was about what a refugee status entailed.

Leaving one alliance (while you are at war) to seek santuary in another alliance without first coming to an understanding with the alliance you were at war with would be one reason.

Negotiating membership in a new alliance while you were still part of one alliance could also be construed as innapropriate and deserve a refugee status (to the alliance you left and/or to the alliance you are attempting to avoid war with)

Obviously Chillax agreed you were a refugee, or their wouldn't have been hesitation in inviting you, or the need to negotiate your 'friends' entrance into Chillax.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to post the obvious. Chillax had agreed with VRoD to NOT take any cities in Ocean 44, instead they used the tactic of 'colonizing' and of inviting former dark palyers to get a presence in Ocean 44 - This I am sure would classify you as a refugee to VRoD, as it used an underhanded/deceitful method for Chillax to circumvent a pact they had with VRoD. Becuase you were part of that perhaps put some of the immediate pressure on you and your friends.

 

[DeletedUser12858]

I never saw them screaming refugee at the guys who were late in joining you, only at the ones who went elsewhere.

At that time we we're pacted with Chillax, you could perhaps even say they were our main allies.
We agreed with them not to take refugees, and they broke that agreement.

That's why we were all over refugees that went in Chillax.

We didn't have such strong relations with 9, so there wasn't much to do about that.
Also it's worth mentioning that 9 is based in 44 so it's normal for them to take players from that ocean.
Chillax promised not to go in 44 and still they took refugees with 10+ cities in O44.

 

[DeletedUser13729]

It is a rather moot point now, but I actually felt bad about it at the time. You are VroD, right Gary? So you know of who I am speaking.

For some to me entirely strange reason the player in question took offence in some meant to be funny messages and couldn't let it go after that. The Cs attempt seemed genuine up till the part where no support ever showed, and the player than said it was fake. The refugee-screaming after that actually felt insulting and opportunistic, and made me enjoy the game far less.

At least I am glad it was not he only reason cause in that case from my point of view VroD got duped by the player in question.

Yeah im in VRoD. And i said it was one of the reasons.There were other reasons... and we could have even swallowed(spelling?) accepting you guys but some of their diplomacy was way to strange to swallow for us btw.

Well i will repeat that i imagine a takeover attempt in 3 days for me and also when ur alliance is at a full out war with another and you leave for another "could" be interpted as a refugee aswell.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hmm. Now you make more sense to me Atticus, thanks for clarifying some points.

As I said it would have been much better for me to leave Dark earlier, I completely agree on that, I wasn't arae of all this refugee stuff, and it's still right or wrong given different circumstances. I think VroD took two cities from Dark inactives in Oc 54 before I left, maybe that was war. At least it makes much more sense to call me a war-refugee than a refugee from the point of the VroD attack with a "fake-cs", which was the only explanation I was ever given in game.

And I do remember you stepping down, but you were a formal leader through rights all the way, and you continued posting plans, after the step-down so I thought you had changed your mind, but you are correct that you posted issues well before, though I never saw anything when you left from you or any of the others who did.

Maybe Chillax thought me a refugee, I don't know. They never said so, except for me having to explain stuff about the fake-cs.

I understand more about what people consider being refugee now thanks. I still stand by me leaving and going to Chillax, even with the reasons you give I can't see much fault, but still it is a VERY moot point know, and I feel bad for having caused so much ruckus over the refugee or not. Which was why I wanted a clarification. This is only me I am talking about, as hilop was under attack when joining Chillax and was aware of being a refugee and was treated as such for at least a week.

And I will leave my opinions on the Dark/9 issue to myself, it wasn't my intention on bringing that up.

And hats of to your playing Atticus, you sure outplayed me and others and seem to still do so!

 

[DeletedUser]

Well i will repeat that i imagine a takeover attempt in 3 days for me and also when ur alliance is at a full out war with another and you leave for another "could" be interpted as a refugee aswell.

Full out war was probably easliy seen from your viewpoint, from mine it just seemed you mopping up some inactive Darkies in Oc 54. And since Dark just fell apart I could never tell you went all out war on us. But of course I knew you would sooner or later.

Anyway, if I had just left Dark when I started talking to Chillax, perhaps with my firends and formed an interim alliance all this could have been mostly avoided, I get that. So that i stake-home message for me to keep for the future. Gl all in Kappa!

 

[DeletedUser12512]

Fogge,

I appreciate you not making this personal,. Even enemies should be able to show respect for one another. Good Luck.

 

[DeletedUser]

Fogge

Fogge, you were one refugee out of 7 (or so). Pend attacking you was not the determining factor of your refugee status, all 7 of you were. VRoD was at war with Dark and the top players that remained (this was you and a few others) ran to chillax to escaped. This action made it appear (IMHO) that the leadership jumped ship to save themselves and left their former members to the wolves. Maybe you were not a leader and maybe the people who went to Chillax were not leaders but your high points made it appear that you were and just jumping ship to save your own skins did not sit well with me. I understand that I did not and do not have all of the facts so I am just giving my 2 cents from what I saw.

With that said, you were only one factor out of several and to a certain extent you guys got caught in the middle but by no means were you the only reason 9, CS, PK and VRoD are at war with Chillax. As I stated in another post, we did not even declare war until nereos sent a PM to the VRoD members that was out of line. If you want to find one person to pin the war on, it would be him.

 

[DeletedUser14385]

Srains my man, none of you had ever attacked me when i joined chillax in fact the only people who ever had are in chillax and the only people who ever supported me in any ops i ever did before that time came with me so i wont lose sleep about abandoning anyone. ... (wow reading that back is a mouthfull lol)

Lets get this straight your at war because the aim of the game is to take citys and who are the number 2 alliance going to fight? We just got the Helen of Troy role and we played it well

As for you 9 dudes i was banned from fighting Vrod and Chillax by name and told finding weak players to farm for bp was mandatory but of coarse you left because you just wanted to fight........

 

[DeletedUser11965]

Was I a refugee?

 

[DeletedUser]

I would lose sleep if I were a leader who abandoned his members to save his own skin.

 

[DeletedUser14385]

i was never a leader unless you count second in command of a battlegroup consisting of (after certain members leaving for 9) 7 players who came with me

and my skin doesnt need saving your 4 decent players wont have the cp and the rest bounce cs's off my militia still its all in the name of fun do you reckon your boys would have rebuilt enough slingers to make me defender of the day again tommoz?

 

[DeletedUser]

Fogge, you were one refugee out of 7 (or so). Pend attacking you was not the determining factor of your refugee status, all 7 of you were. VRoD was at war with Dark and the top players that remained (this was you and a few others) ran to chillax to escaped. This action made it appear (IMHO) that the leadership jumped ship to save themselves and left their former members to the wolves. Maybe you were not a leader and maybe the people who went to Chillax were not leaders but your high points made it appear that you were and just jumping ship to save your own skins did not sit well with me. I understand that I did not and do not have all of the facts so I am just giving my 2 cents from what I saw.

Yes the leadership jumped ship....to 9.
And I already commented on the war thing. of course it was obvious to you, but certainly not to me. Still I was never aware of the war-refugee issue, and all I heard after going to chillax was of the Pend issue. In the end I'm not mad. I'm new, and since all of you seem to take this refugee-business for granted thinking everyone has been in the game forever I asked.