Spam Attacking - Let us begin the conversation here

VIRTUALSELF

Phrourach
1. Spam attacking 10 oceans away by trolls ofc shouldnt be allowed. Inno could fix this by not allowing players/trollers to found cities in O09 in the first place. That's killing two birds with one stone.

2. No one said war would be fun, so if fakes, distractions etc. (what most people call "spamming") isnt fun for you, then i don't think Grepolis is the game for you.
 

DeletedUser41523

Guest
This has been a problem for at least 2 years and probably before then. I don't think anything Inno will do will solve the problem or improve game play. I feel like community management stopped caring a long time ago as the issue is largely beyond them. But they've also helped get it to this point by infracting many people who raised this issue in the past. Frankly, some of GPC have contributed to the issue in the past. And that's not a total knock, nobody's perfect, myself included. But the first step to solving the problem is admitting that perhaps none of these are actually viable answers.

Here's my proposal for improving the problem.

1) Create a master black list to identify excessive spammers, spamming alliances, cheaters, and cheating alliances. The main focus here will be the alliances and alliance leaders. The people actually adding to this list should be a handful of reputable players and leaders, perhaps elected by you all. This is done to prevent anyone random person from claiming they got spammed by someone they don't like, when they really got HCed twice in an hour, caught off, cleared, and lost cities. The list should be posted on the forums and bumped/updated often. Ignorance shouldn't be an excuse.

2) A super alliance or group of alliances should be created for the purpose of hunting down the teams that are known cheaters and spammers.

3) The super team will then give the spammers a taste of their own medicine and fight them with the intention of forcing a disband and/or driving the leaders and prominent spammers out of the game. This will be repeated for as long as the group remains a group.

Now obviously, there's going to be kinks in this proposal. But based on my experience, it can be done. For anyone that doesn't know, I helped found BWN with that idea in mind on 107. I even recruited some players based on this premise. There was even a blacklist created based largely around point 1. It is possible to pull this off.
 

DeletedUser56062

Guest
So, not sure if this could help or has even been thought of, but InnoGames could make it so that you can only recall attacks that you send on people in your alliance. This way you can still PING an ally, but if you attack an enemy, you understand that you need to send by a certain time or else, and once you send, it is set in stone. This does increase a defenders chance of sniping since defenders would still be able to recall support and resend. So not sure how much this could help. Kind of would push the game in favor of defenders even more.
 

DeletedUser41523

Guest
So, not sure if this could help or has even been thought of, but InnoGames could make it so that you can only recall attacks that you send on people in your alliance. This way you can still PING an ally, but if you attack an enemy, you understand that you need to send by a certain time or else, and once you send, it is set in stone. This does increase a defenders chance of sniping since defenders would still be able to recall support and resend. So not sure how much this could help. Kind of would push the game in favor of defenders even more.

Problem is that if I catch someone offline and send a CS, then they pop in and wisdom it. I can't recall.
 

DeletedUser56062

Guest
You can't recall after a certain time normally anyway. All the person has to do if they want you to think they are offline is wait, use favor AFTER the 10 minute mark anyway. That doesn't change anything unless they do it inside the normal recall window. This would eliminate the recall window offense for any non alliance troops. Usually you drop a spell on it when it leaves which protects it unless they use purification. If the goal is to get rid of spam attacks, then they will know these are real attacks anyway. So you have to be more strategic about the attacks you send. I know this isn't the best fool proof plan, but if they took this idea, and worked around with on beta, tweaking it here and there to get the desired result. Limit how many attacks can be sent from one city in a given period of time. There are nuances they could try, not all them will be great, but something could help to limit the amount of attacks that are sent as fakes. Either make it so they resist sending fakes knowing they can't recall, or set it so there is a message that you can not send an attack again so soon, and must wait X amount of time.
 

DeletedUser41523

Guest
Well we did have some people try to spam us then turn around and beg us to stop. I'd say we had success. Though tbf the two most notorious groups collapsed on themselves before we ever got there.
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
appreciate the response and honesty
sounds right that bad groups would implode
your idea is a thought for everyone to keep in mind
 

DeletedUser21625

Guest
spam wars just slows down the server and that affects everybody playing. If everybody does spam payback, then you just get a jammed up spam server. No gameplay is possible. No thanks.

I dont think you will get agreement on what kind of attacks constitute spam. Many ppl just call it tactics and defend the practice. Some spam-ish attacks really are tactics. Some, not so much.

I think we can all agree, however, that spamming with the intent of jamming up a players' response, via trades, pm's, or support/recall notifications could never be reasonably considered part of war. That is where the limitations should start.
 

DeletedUser54192

Guest
The part that I do not agree is you trying to go crying to the moderators and trying to change the rules with excuses. This is the part that I am not cool or agree is with you guys crying with lame excuses from this will slow down the server to we are doing it to force people out of the game.
It does slow the server down. And if a particular player receives enough commands, it can actually break the game for them (from being unable to do anything on the app, to command overviews breaking down on browser). As for the "forcing people out of the game": that is a goal for some people. And is a side effect of the main use of spam, which is to irritate people enough that they lose the will to play on that world.

As for your second post (double-posting is against the rules, by the way):
  • It's basically all off-topic, as it does not represent or match up with in-game spam. If you read Anna's post properly, it's about in-game war, not real wars.
    • Jamming foreign countries' radio stations is like telling your players not to go on the externals, and not to talk to the enemy via in-game PMs.
    • Smokescreens are best-represented by the invisibility spell. (Spam doesn't hide your troops.)
    • False instructions don't have an easy match-up in the game. The closest matches would probably be feeding false information to an enemy via "slips" or via someone pretending to be a spy for the enemy.

It would be great if you could stay on-topic, and not just insult everyone who disagrees with you. You're not the world.

Back on topic. I like Smilodon's idea, to an extent. If it works well, great. The only worry is that it would lead to some worlds degenerating into spam wars, with different groups of players getting revenge or "punishing" those they perceive to have spammed them in the past (whether or not the other person was actually the one who started it). It'd be interesting to see if this works , or if it just escalates into frequent spam wars, as Anna hypothesised.
 

DeletedUser54775

Guest
1) Slowing the server down....myth or reality?
So lets try to be specific on this. I often manage to get 150+ cities in a world. When I do an operation, I often send 2 attacks from each city. This is 300 attacks. Are you really telling me that my 2 attacks per city in a 12 hour window are going to slow this server? I must say that I make sure that I am not a freeloader on this game. I pay enough so this company is getting more than my cost of the data usage.

I play other games too, and for a lower fee they manage to transfer more data. We do not have complicated graphics.

2) This is a war game. The theoretical principles of warfare are the same and applicable though specific might differ. This is what most of you do not understand.

The reality is that people are trying to "stigmatize" and "criminalize" tactics that they can not handle. This is the crux of the issue.

As for staying on topic, this is perhaps the biggest challenge. This is a symptom of a more larger problem. Unless you see and analyze the issue in the broader context of the game, there is no real understanding that this is not a real problem. It is a made up problem by those who can not handle defeat. (i.e. like those who lost a war even though they were a mega coalition of 7 alliances and their respective academies)

As for my advice for the developers, please do nothing or create a separate world for those who do not want to engage in a complex and thoughtful game. Perhaps have a world were there is a limit in the attacks per hour, so those who need training wheels can feel happy.
 
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DeletedUser54192

Guest
1) Slowing the server down....myth or reality?
Given that the server handles every player's data, and it's possible to slow down or crash the game for particular players, I'd say it's reality.

2) This is a war game. The theoretical principles of warfare are the same and applicable though specific might differ. This is what most of you do not understand.

I perfectly understand what you've been trying to say, about spam being a transference of guerrilla warfare / etc. into this game. But as I've pointed out, that just isn't the case. Whenever I have pointed out that spam is not representative of any RL warfare tactic, you have avoided replying to it, and either spammed more irrelevant historical examples, or gone back to insulting everyone that dislikes spam.

The reality is that people are trying to "stigmatize" and "criminalize" tactics that they can not handle. This is the crux of the issue.
Spam creates it's own stigma. Spam relies on making the game an unpleasant experience for the target. That's unsportsmanlike for a start (which matters because this is most definitely a game). It's also a tactic that is usually only used by those who lack the skill to beat their opponents using real strategies.

As for staying on topic, this is perhaps the biggest challenge. This is a symptom of a more larger problem. Unless you see and analyze the issue in the broader context of the game, there is no real understanding that this is not a real problem. It is a made up problem by those who can not handle defeat. (i.e. like those who lost a war even though they were a mega coalition of 7 alliances and their respective academies)
  • It's not been that difficult for almost everyone else in this thread, just you.
  • You haven't analysed it in the broader context of the game. You've got a grudge with me over dispelling a large quantity of your propaganda on a previous world, and therefore keep making dodgy statements about it in order to irritate me. I know for a fact that I'm not the only player irritated by your attitude on this thread. (You're also attention-seeking. I've stated multiple times that if you want to continue an argument about old worlds, to do it somewhere else, such as on Skype, but you keep dragging it into this thread instead.)

As for my advice for the developers, please do nothing or create a separate world for those who do not want to engage in a complex and thoughtful game. Perhaps have a world were there is a limit in the attacks per hour, so those who need training wheels can feel happy.
  • It may be that nothing happens. However that's probably due to the fact that community requests keep getting ignored or mishandled by the developers.
  • We on the GPC are concerned with what the community thinks. And the vast majority of those I have talked to across alliance chats and world chats, and seen on this forum, are against spam. I'm willing to put forward useful ideas and feedback. Not pages of arrogant mockery and off-topic information that doesn't actually back up the case for spam remaining in the game.
  • A world without spam would actually be a lot more complex and thoughtful. Spamming doesn't need any intelligence or strategy. It's a toxic, childish behaviour.
 

DeletedUser54775

Guest
Dear Kal,
I really believe that you and many people are convinced of the following:

1) "A world without spam would actually be a lot more complex and thoughtful. Spamming doesn't need any intelligence or strategy. It's a toxic, childish behaviour."

2) "I have pointed out that spam is not representative of any RL warfare tactic.."

I hear you and respect your opinion.

I can not convince you of something that you have not experienced yourself.
However, for some of us "guerrilla warfare" principles as outlined by Sun Tzu, Quintus Fabius Maximus, Alexander The Great, Washington, or Mao, among others has without doubt given us specific advantage against stronger or more numerous alliances. We do see the parallels and try to follow their principles.

Your really need to read their works and/or study their attack plans to understand the similarities.

My advice to the moderators and developers is give the OPTION of training wheels to the ones that want limited attacks, but please keep the game as is for for the ones that like the complexity.

Option is always good for consumers.
At the end market forces will decide what is more sustainable.

Ps. the same for wonders and domination. the more options that we get the better for players and the community.
 

DeletedUser54192

Guest
I hear you and respect your opinion.
Which is why you've insulted me and/or my opinion in every previous reply.

I can not convince you of something that you have not experienced yourself.

However, for some of us "guerrilla warfare" principles as outlined by Sun Tzu, Quintus Fabius Maximus, Alexander The Great, Washington, or Mao, among others has without doubt given us specific advantage against stronger or more numerous alliances. We do see the parallels and try to follow their principles.
Actual in-game guerrilla warfare is great. Hell, deception strategies (primarily fake revolts) are standard OP procedure for most decent alliance. But spam isn't a representation of this, no matter how you slice it.

Your really need to read their works and/or study their attack plans to understand the similarities.

Not really. Let's compare them:
Guerrilla warfare: small attacks, not running headlong into enemy strong points so as to preserve troops, aim to win through attrition by winning small victories in each battle.
Spam: tonnes of tiny attacks, running headlong into every enemy position (no matter the strength) with no care as to whether the attacking units survive, basically never win battles (either dodged, or the attacking units die on a poor BP ratio), aim to irritate the player and worsen their game experience.

My advice to the moderators and developers is give the OPTION of training wheels to the ones that want limited attacks, but please keep the game as is for for the ones that like the complexity.
So your advice is to segregate the community because you like to worsen people's game experience? As I've pointed out before, spam is in no way complex. It requires practically no planning or intelligence, and is mainly used by players who can't play with any degree of complexity.

You started off this debate with an "I am the community" attitude, pushing that the entire spam issue be dropped for everyone because you like using it. When your arguments start to be picked apart, you move to the "you shouldn't force your opinion on me" attitude.
 

DeletedUser55307

Guest
Kal you really have no idea no you can't crash the game ewit spamming it's has never happened before it is not anyone fault if someone else is using a device that can't keep up with the game that is what fails the device your practically saying that it's our fault someone doesn't have the proper format for the game that like using dial up on a live game and blaming your lag on everyone else
 

DeletedUser55307

Guest
Side note I do spam I'll spam 300 small attacks if I know you're sleeping and I do it for strategic reasoning I'll keep you up all night long and then have someone else spam you why I am asleep with no alarm but with my city's tripped I'll keep you up for a week until i troll you into no alarm then I come over and take your city's with a tenth of the troops it would take with you using a alarm idc if you don't like it or that not how you play iv seen you fail world after world do you really think your style of play is good or what
For anyone to say spam not apart of war fodder is fodder that word didn't just come from anywhere almost everyone who spams understands that they will lose there troops that the point to compare your wall to the attacks what city are you stacking what city's are getting retripped what city's are being left open if you use simple math you can even know what troops are in your city's that you have stacked without using 2mill silver per city also I want to disrupt your daily schedule of game play just to make you feel frantic and off why I do take your city's that way you don't communicate to your group as good and forget to activate a defense item or activate militia
 
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DeletedUser54192

Guest
Kal you really have no idea no you can't crash the game ewit spamming it's has never happened before it is not anyone fault if someone else is using a device that can't keep up with the game that is what fails the device your practically saying that it's our fault someone doesn't have the proper format for the game that like using dial up on a live game and blaming your lag on everyone else
I've seen the app crash on good phones on good connection due to number of commands. The command overview can break at extreme numbers of commands no matter the internet connection or computer model. If the game starts lagging massively due to a huge number of commands from someone spamming them, then that's the spammer's fault. They know what they are doing.

Side note I do spam I'll spam 300 small attacks if I know you're sleeping and I do it for strategic reasoning I'll keep you up all night long and then have someone else spam you why I am asleep with no alarm but with my citysc tripped I'll keep you up for a week until i troll you into no alarm then I come over and take your city's with a tenth of the troops it would take with you using a alarm idc if you don't like it or that not how you play iv seen you fail world after world do you really think your style of play is good or what
  • So you want to keep spam in the game because you overload players with spam to ruin their game experience (300 attacks is extremely irritating, alarm or no alarm). That's just you being a toxic element of the community.
  • That's funny. I don't remember you from any world I've played on. Probably because you insist on hiding your identity by using a different name on the forums. So stop with the anonymous insults. It won't earn you any respect.
 

DeletedUser55307

Guest
At least you don't deny it Kal and I'm pretty sure when I take someone city or rim them I'm ruining their gameplay alot more
you tried to go around the gameplay aspect of it once again and I have never had the game crash because of spam on my end or someone else
 
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DeletedUser54192

Guest
At least you don't deny it Kal and I'm pretty sure when I take someone city or rim them I'm ruining their gameplay alot more
  • I see no point in getting involved in your oh-so-brave anonymous taunts.
  • I know quite a few players who would rather lose cities honestly than have people continually spamming them. Spamming is used by those who lack the skill to take cities honestly.

you tried to go around the gameplay aspect of it once again and I have never had the game crash because of spam on my end or someone else
  • I've addressed exactly the same gameplay issue on multiple occasions in this thread.
  • Just because it didn't happen to you or someone you know doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You're not the center of the universe.
 
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