What is the Source of Morality?

[DeletedUser]

This is an age-old debate - where does a human's sense of morality and obligation stem from?

Is it purely natural to feel obligation to one's species, and if so, why is crime and war so prominent? Is it due to society's conventions and the modern age's ability to oppress those that do not adhere to them? Is it resultant of various cultures and religions, and has this led to a gulf between the morals of varying geographical areas? If so, is there still common ground that suggests otherwise?

I must remind everyone that it is not okay to insult a culture, nation or religion - if you want to speak against something, please do so politely and factually. All forum rules and DnD rules still apply.

Enjoy the debate, I'm sorry it has been a while!

Liam

 

[DeletedUser]

its an interesting topic. i think the main reason of loss of morality and increase in violence or crime is because of lack of consequences. if you think that you could get away unpunished after committing a crime, it does encourage people to do bad stuff.

In old days, people were afraid of god and thought that for every bad thing they did, they will be punished in afterlife. so they refrained from such acts. moreover, in early days, world was not so materialistic.
today, in modern era, people dont believe in such things and are materialistic. the only way to tackle it is by punishing the criminals. this will set an example for others

 

[DeletedUser]

I firmly the ultimate source of Morality is religion, namely Christianity. I believe we were created good, by a good God. Then, as most have you have no doubt heard, man was tempted by sin, and from that the immoral world we live in now exists. We are still made in the image of God, therefore we have good morals, even if we have become evil and twisted in many ways.

However, another interesting, more direct question would be, why does western society today lack morals??
I think this stems from a lack of absolute right and wrongs.

I am no philosopher however, so i will let you all fight it out

 

[DeletedUser22509]

I feel we have a sense of morality and obligation towards each other because we are sociable pack animals. This helped our early ancestors as they could depend on the group and the group could depend on them and if they were to harm or morally wrong someone in the group this would weaken the group and in turn themselves. That being said rival groups often harmed each other so that one may get the upper hand and increase their odds of survival. We also get a sense of morality from our family and the society we are apart of.

Crime and war are so prevalent because of human greed. People will often do whatever it take to get what they want even at the expense of others. This greed will never be satisfied and unfortunately some people lack or forget their morals and give into to greedy criminal acts.

 

[DeletedUser]

I feel we have a sense of morality and obligation towards each other because we are sociable pack animals. This helped our early ancestors as they could depend on the group and the group could depend on them and if they were to harm or morally wrong someone in the group this would weaken the group and in turn themselves. That being said rival groups often harmed each other so that one may get the upper hand and increase their odds of survival. We also get a sense of morality from our family and the society we are apart of.

Crime and war are so prevalent because of human greed. People will often do whatever it take to get what they want even at the expense of others. This greed will never be satisfied and unfortunately some people lack or forget their morals and give into to greedy criminal acts.

I bolded part of your quote....
Bolded part number 1 - Who or what set the moral code in the first place?? you say "If they harm someone" well, who or what told them that harming people is bad?

Bolded part number 2 - What foundations is western civilization (primarily america) built on??? The answer is the bible. Where does the bible get its morals from? God.

 

[DeletedUser]

its an interesting topic. i think the main reason of loss of morality and increase in violence or crime is because of lack of consequences. if you think that you could get away unpunished after committing a crime, it does encourage people to do bad stuff.

If a person thought- 'I want to do something bad but i might get caught so i am not going to', surely they have already lost their morality at that point? The point at which it is only the threat of punishment that stops people from doing bad is surely the point at which they have lost their morality.

why does western society today lack morals??

Only western society?
So the fact that in Syria, for example, there is a huge civil war taking place... (showing a clear lack of morality).

I think this is a hugely sweeping statement. All western societies lack morality. :/
I disagree, in our society there is crime and there are many people that do show a clear lack of morals. However that doesn't mean that as a whole, our society has lost its morality.
If someone was lying in the road, people help. If someone sees someone being mugged, they help. People give to charity etc etc
As a society, here in England at least, I think we do have a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong.

Why do you believe that western society lacks morals?

-----
There is no such thing as a truly selfless act, people never do anything just to help other people, they will always get something in return. People do good deeds for a number of reasons, but one of them is surely the fact that people do do good deeds in modern day society are praised.

In times of war, soldiers, i suppose, get into an 'me or him' mentality and it becomes about self preservation. I don't think that war shows a lack of morality.

I may just be getting confused about what morality actually is though.

Some people are more empathetic than other people, these people are more likely to help someone if they seem upset etc, does that mean that the have better morals than me?

I firmly the ultimate source of Morality is religion

Are you saying that people who aren't religious have no morality?

 

[DeletedUser22509]

I bolded part of your quote....
Bolded part number 1 - Who or what set the moral code in the first place?? you say "If they harm someone" well, who or what told them that harming people is bad?

Bolded part number 2 - What foundations is western civilization (primarily america) built on??? The answer is the bible. Where does the bible get its morals from? God.

Bolded part number 1 - People do not like getting harmed or murdered themselves. So people understand what others feel like when it happens to others. So a moral code developed that harming others is bad in order to reduce the chance of them being harmed or murdered themselves and consequences were put in place to help uphold this idea such as prison.

Bolded part number 2 - I agree many of people in western civilization base their morals on their religion but how did people develop their morals before the teachings of the bible?

 

[DeletedUser]

If a person thought- 'I want to do something bad but i might get caught so i am not going to', surely they have already lost their morality at that point? The point at which it is only the threat of punishment that stops people from doing bad is surely the point at which they have lost their morality.

I would agree with you. but as you have heard, if you keep one rotten apple in the basket, other apples become rotten too. crime needs to be kept at bay from time to time. one such activity creates a chain reaction that causes many innocents to loose their innocence and plunder into darkness. its known to everyone.

So, i would say that if there are consequences, then only crime can be minimized.

moreover, moral doesnot have a proper definition. it differs from place to place. therefore i would stick to the law of the country as well as the general morals taught by your own religion.

 

[DeletedUser]

Are you saying that people who aren't religious have no morality?

Absolutely this. I'm a complete one sided atheist, yet I greet customers with a smile and (hopefully) some form of warm welcome. If religion is the ultimate form of morality, then how do you explain that?

 

[DeletedUser]

Bolded part number 2 - What foundations is western civilization (primarily america) built on??? The answer is the bible. Where does the bible get its morals from? God.

What? The U.S. isn't founded on ideals of the Bible, it is founded on the ideals of The Enlightenment...

its an interesting topic. i think the main reason of loss of morality and increase in violence or crime is because of lack of consequences. if you think that you could get away unpunished after committing a crime, it does encourage people to do bad stuff.

Contrary to popular belief, many think that we are currently living in the most peaceful period in all of history.
Source: Harvard's Steven Pinker

However, another interesting, more direct question would be, why does western society today lack morals??
I think this stems from a lack of absolute right and wrongs.
I am no philosopher however, so i will let you all fight it out

People will always think differently, especially in terms of what is right and what is wrong. Believing that everyone should hold the same beliefs of right and wrong is fundamentally fascist.

There is no such thing as a truly selfless act, people never do anything just to help other people, they will always get something in return.

Yes there is. Unless you count death as "getting something in return".

 

[DeletedUser27621]

My belief is that early humans lived in groups and depended on each other to survive. If someone in the group was harmed everyone would suffer. Also if someone harmed a member of the group the other members would punish or exile the non-moral person out of fear (if Fred hurt Jeff what will Fred do to me?). Because of these two reasons it became necessary to develop a sense of morality. Morals were then passed down either by instinct (that is to say genetically), or taught from parent/society to child, I'd guess that it is a combination of both.

People may perform immoral actions for several different reasons:

1. They are mentally ill and do not understand the consequences of their actions.

2. They may enjoy the adrenaline that comes with performing dangerous acts. People may even become in some ways addicted to braking the law because it is exciting. This can be combined with reason one to create someone who does especially terrible things like mass murderers.

3. They are so desperate (poor, homeless, etc.) that they need to, say, rob a store in order to survive.

4. They might not recognize the person they are wronging as a member of their pack. Members of different gangs may fight each other and countries frequently go to war.

5. They are retaliating/punishing someone. There is some debate as to if this is immorale or not (if Fred hurt Jeff can I hurt Fred?)

This is my opinion on other arguments brought up:

Morality comes from a fear of God and other people,

-Definitely a major factor.

Morality comes from religion mostly Christianity,

-Morality and Religion are definitely intertwined but I don't think religion is the source of morality, If this is so how is it that all religions have the same (or nearly the same) morals?



I welcome criticism but that does not mean I will agree with it.

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't think we can really begin to discern where morality comes from. In my opinion, there are multiple sources of morality, religion being one. For example, the bible gives the Ten Commandments. Those can be used to set a moral belief, such as you shall not commit adultery.

People can be moral for many reasons. From personal gain to kindness. What is considered moral depends on the society upon which the person lives. Let's say in one country hanging your pants out on a cloths line is immoral, while in another it's not. Also, it depends on what the person believes is 'good'. Lets say one man thinks hunting falls under 'good', while another person doesn't.

I believe that everyone has a certain degree of morality. Even the bad guys. For example, let's say there is this evil warlord who kills almost everyone. Almost. Let's say he has at least spared one person. Right there, in my opinion, that would suggest he has some degree of morality.

That barely scratched the top of the 'source of morality'.

 

[DeletedUser]

Morality comes from religion mostly Christianity,

-Morality and Religion are definitely intertwined but I don't think religion is the source of morality, If this is so how is it that all religions have the same (or nearly the same) morals?

i disagree dear Evan. As I understand, 'morals' are like an etiquette form of laws. For example, in Western society it's incredibly good moral/etiquette not to rape/pillage. However, you're saying that all religions have the same/similar forms of these morals, which I personally believe to be an incredibly uninformed statement. The most well known (to most of us at least) in Western society in form of religion is Christianity. Most of these morals are intertwined into our law system. I mean, the 10 commandments are pretty obvious to us, but in Islam the morals are completely different. It's a similar case with other religions too, they simply do not have the same morals. I must also say, that it's the same to those of us (myself included) who aren't religious at all.

Quoting from your sentence again however, I absolutely 100% agree that morals do not come from religion. I kinda rambled then, and I made it seem like I thought you agreed with him, which you weren't.... Wow I messed this post up.

 

[DeletedUser]

I absolutely 100% agree that morals do not come from religion.

And I 100% disagree. Of course some 'morals' come from religion. The ten commandment, for example.

I live in the USA. And in my town there are Christians and non Christians. One non Christian believes saying God's name in vain is completely acceptable morally, while this Christian finds it completely immoral. They live in the same town. They grew up together. Same school same everything. They are the same race. And yet different morals. I'm more or less certain that if the Christian had grown up without church and all that in his life, he'd believe that saying God's name in vain is acceptable.

 

[DeletedUser]

And I 100% disagree. Of course some 'morals' come from religion. The ten commandment, for example.

I live in the USA. And in my town there are Christians and non Christians. One non Christian believes saying God's name in vain is completely acceptable morally, while this Christian finds it completely immoral. They live in the same town. They grew up together. Same school same everything. They are the same race. And yet different morals. I'm more or less certain that if the Christian had grown up without church and all that in his life, he'd believe that saying God's name in vain is acceptable.

Okay let's take a different route here. Animals have been observed to have morals. Apes and dolphins for example, look after their offspring. This is a moral, and was not brought on by religion, more by evolution because the parent wants the best start in life for the child in order for the species to continue. Thusly I conclude that morals are partially brought on by evolution.

With all due respect, religion has certainly said "Here they are, now they're written down". However religion did not create them.

 

[DeletedUser]

What's your point? The same applies to humans. If I grow up as a child with non Christian parents, I'd have a different set of morals than had I grown up in a Christian family.

 

[DeletedUser]

What's your point?

I don't know. ):

 

[DeletedUser]

Contrary to popular belief, many think that we are currently living in the most peaceful period in all of history.
Source: Harvard's Steven Pinker

Mr Penguin, thats not true. our world has become more violent than before. yesterday we had sword, today we have got nukes. moreover its not only the physical violence or war that matters today. the race to achieve more power and money among men is maddening which has resulted in exploitation and dirty politics which disrupts the peace as much as anything else. so, how can you call this world more peaceful than before?

 

[DeletedUser]

Mr Penguin, thats not true. our world has become more violent than before. yesterday we had sword, today we have got nukes.

More military technology and potential is not the equivalent of more violence.

 

[Link of time]

Mr Penguin, thats not true. our world has become more violent than before. yesterday we had sword, today we have got nukes. moreover its not only the physical violence or war that matters today. the race to achieve more power and money among men is maddening which has resulted in exploitation and dirty politics which disrupts the peace as much as anything else. so, how can you call this world more peaceful than before?

USA have had nukes for 70 years, only ever used them twice on Japan