End Game Revamp

Phidippidies

Phrourach
This thread will be for discussion specific to a revamp of the end game.
It's highly unlikely that we'll be able to push through an entire new end game, but if you have any ideas on how to tweak it in any way, you can share those ideas and respond to other players' ideas here.
 

Phidippidies

Phrourach
Posts from elsewhere in the forum:
World Wonders Prerequisites
  • The world must have been in existence for at least 6 months (with each month being 30 days)
  • The sum of the top 50 alliances points must be at least 250 million
  • If the world is not in the "Era of World Wonders" after 6 months, the amount needed for the sum of the top 50 alliances will be reduced by 13 million per month.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I think different WW Prerequisites could solve a lot of Grepo's problems

In a speed 1-2 world with a small alliance cap its going be a year before the WW Era begins
and by then Alliances have a safe zone beyond CS range and lots players have dropped out
It just becomes a game of who gets tired of playing first

  • The world must have been in existence for at least 1-2 months (with each month being 30 days)
  • The sum of your alliance points must be at least *****
  • - can build one wonder to level one
  • The sum of your alliance points must be at least *****+*****
  • - can build a 2nd wonder to level one or increase first to lvl 2
  • etc
- If the world is not in the "Era of World Wonders" after 6 months , the amount needed for the sum of the top 50 alliances will be reduced by 13 million per month.

Alliance leaders would need decided if they wanted build WW early or put resources into growing


WW buffs need be actually useful
Some are kinda iffy at best

Resources need to build might be reduced with longer build times (no favor speeding also)
 

Phidippidies

Phrourach
I've been kicking around how to improve the end game for awhile. Even going so far as to make an idea that totally revamps WWs and buffs their bonuses. But I decided not to post that idea because that idea still involves doing the main thing everyone complains about...Building wonders in the first place. So without further ado...


Proposal: Scrap the end game entirely. Don't worry about replacing it and instead let the game end when the world falls under 300 players. Leave the "winner" entirely subjective and instead make the fall of fame show the top ten fighters, players, and alliances of that world.

Reason: The original purpose of this end game was to give world winning teams entry into the hero worlds. Don't know what the hero worlds are? That's because after some initial interest, they fizzled out as the main game was more interesting to most players. Leaving the wonders as rather pointless monuments to an unsuccessful idea.

Its been four years since an end game revamp was promised. Nothing of substance has come since then. The only fix attempted was easy to abuse and get around as we just proved on Olous. All the ideas I've read in this section aren't really great (no offense to the people who put effort in). This leaves us with one hard truth. Inno has no good ideas for this problem and neither does the player base. So why be stuck with it? Inno probably doesn't want to get harassed with it anymore. And players are sick of dealing with it. Its a burden off the Inno idea department and the fun part of the game just gets extended.

I think that its time to return to the original premise of the game. Which was building an empire. Be it a personal one or an alliance. This was always the focal point of the game and wonders always were a tedious thing that everyone groaned at.

I can only speak personally here. But I didn't stick around for going on 8 years because world wonders were so awesome. I stuck around because creating alliances and helping people learn the game was fun for me.

Details:

1) Inno can either take them out from 2.0 or use a 1.26 map and update that map to the currently version only without the wonders. Whichever is less work.

2) The same closing condition applies. Once a world goes under 300 players, its in a 1 month count down. Once the countdown begins, no new players can join.

3) Similar to the heroic tactician award, crowns and victor/master awards can be kept as easter eggs.

Abuse: I'm not sure if this is really abuse as its more just nice to have than a big difference maker but just to add in a possible problem. The 50 favor cap from people who already won is an issue I can see. I'll leave that up to Inno or the players or both. Keep it as an easter egg or scrap it?

TL;DR Version: Nobody has been able to come up with a good end game. So why even have an end game? Let the game end when the closing conditions are met and leave the winner open to interpretation. Revert back to the original game premise essentially.
 

figtree2

Polemarch
The only issue I can see with these proposed prerequisites is that larger alliances will get an unfair advantage as smaller alliances would not be able to keep up. Im just concerned that if there isn't a requirement that the top 50 alliances are at X points, then the game will become unbalanced due to one or two alliances having an advantage.
 

MacAnailigh

Phrourach
(Already posted in "What do you hate about ...")

Original enquiry: "What single aspect of wonders do you dislike the most?".

The "World Wonders" age changes the Grepolis world in many ways. This satisfies the original charger of a "single aspect". As to HOW World Wonders changes a world requires a somewhat longer explanation.vor

Upon entry to the "World Wonders" stage:

1. Players leave, because they do not like the WW, or do not understand the WW, or their alliance leadership has decided to not pursue WW.
2. The world changes, as everything is related to resources and favor production, while stacking WW-island alliance members with more biremes that could EVER fit in any Greek or Roman era harbor.
3. The strongest alliances, along with their clones, using "roll-in,roll-out" techniques for maximized resource and favor production.
4. The strongest alliance gets the four WW "Victor" and, after some competition, the "Crown" of the world. At this point, many just throw in the towel, and look for a new world.
5. For those players and alliances not interested in the WW mania, entrance to the World Wonder era foreshadows the end of the world.. When the player count hits 300 (or less), the world closes in 28 days. (Apologies to Sandra Bullock).

Improvements might include:

1. Do NOT close invitations and world registration to those worlds entering WW era.
2. Require alliances to hold World Wonders until world ending. (This will be most interesting!)
3. Change the requirements for establishing and upgrading World Wonders. The resource demand render the game to a resource management problem, and no longer a game, The favor requirements for a short time "improvement" are unreasonable to the point that many do not attempt "acceleration".
4. Reduce the impact of "roll-in"/"roll-out", requiring a time period (such as 7 days) for re-joining an alliance.
5. Offer alternative paths to "winning" a world, not requiring building World Wonders.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
 

Foo Fighter

Phrourach
I've been thinking about this for a long time, recently i came up with something i think might be able to work.

What is not fun about the Wonders:
1. Prepping for them
as basically worlds on the EN servers last about 6, 7 months, after the 4th month the game becomes a sim fest. Colonizing in core, maxing market and temples etc. etc.
2. The process of building them.
Basically total sim fest, world stops for 2 to 3 weeks till all the wonders are built, groups with the biggest numbers, most simmers, usually wins.
3. Maintaining them.
After an ally gets 7 wonders the world basically ends, they got the win, most players leave, now whats left of the winning alliance has to basically protect their wonders till the world dies so someone else on the world doesn't get a crown they don't deserve. The game becomes who can sim the longest without leaving contest.

What's fun about the Wonders:
Busting them
I don't know a greater satisfaction in this game other than taking wonders, everything about it is fun, when you're doing it, its the most fun you can have on Grep.

And that's about it, if you ask me...

So a way to fix this, we need to put the emphasis on attacking and defending.

What i propose is this:
Since worlds don't have as many players anymore. I don't see this changing, neither does inno due to their recent "miliking" attempts.
It's a shame but it's a fact. The game is dying slowly, every world revolves around 4 oceans 44, 45, 54, 55.
Rim is beginning to be more and more inconsequential.
What im proposing is a total change of the system:

AGE OF THE CONQUERORS

When a world meets the requirements like for the Age of wonders, the age of conquerors begins.
An alliance gets to pick an island somewhere in near the center of the ocean they need to defend from every other group on the server. There is 4 total islands (each for one of the core oceans), if an alliance happens to lose their island (you lose it as soon as one city falls to another alliance) the alliance that took it get to choose one more island in their core. The goal is to control all 4. Once an alliance controls all 4 islands a countdown starts throughout the world that last 7 days. If they keep all 4 islands during that 7 day period, the alliance is named THE CONQUERORS OF THE WORLD. Every member receives a crown, and a countdown starts for the world to end. One crown per world, one dominant winner, one conqueror.


Prerequisite to pick an island:
Must control xxx number of cities in one of the oceans 44, 45, 54, 55.
Explanation: since the world revolves around the core, the biggest groups are in the core, the number of cities has to be one which makes it impossible for another group to be dominant in one ocean. So for example if there is 1000 cities in an ocean, for a group to receive an island they need to control, let's say 800 cities. Only big island cities count, no rocks.

Location of the island:
The alliance founder gets to choose where their island will be, it has to be near the center of the ocean.
Explanation: As it needs to be fair it has to be close, yet far enough. This would be an example as to which islands are viable https://i.gyazo.com/18aeab70093261c2a5a1f2d3212dd160.png

What if:
1. What if a core alliance doesn't meet the prerequisite?
The group with the most cities in their core ocean receives an additional island, to reward them for being smart, and strong enough to secure their own ocean.
2. What if 1 group controls two oceans?
They get 2 islands, and get to choose where they want to place them, both in the same center, or one for each center. Same goes if they get control of more islands, they get to place them in any center they want.
3. What if an alliance meets the prerequisite to get an island, and then starts losing cities in their home ocean bellow the requirement cap?
They keep the island until they lose it, but they need to remain above the cap for any additional islands.
4. What if one of the residents of the island leaves the ally?
They lose their island and it goes to the alliance with the most cities in their home ocean, why? To make the alliance leadership pick and choose the island residents wisely.
5. What if a player that's on a chosen island goes to VM?
The city can be attacked while the resident is in VM.
6. What if a rim alliance takes a city?
The ally with the most cities in their home ocean receives an additional island.

Now why i like this system, basically forces groups to fight, removes the second branch or at least makes them a burden to have, as you can choose to have more players but need to keep them small.

Values and other stuff can still be worked around on, and things can be changed around here and there, but i think this is a good starting point for a change.
If anyone has further questions i'd be glad to answer them
 

Ries Korin

Phrourach
I see several points threading through most of the comments here and from others i know in-game.
1/ The game mechanics have been changed too much from the original.
2/ Too much emphasis on gold use.
3/ The community that point 2 has created is all about attack.
4/ Grepolis is not a total attack game and is being destroyed because Inno and the new community are trying to make it so.
5/ Total world player numbers are tanking.
I realise i'm wizzing in the wind but for me, the gold use and emphasis on attack/events on rotation, are the problem. This is the aspect of the changes to the game that Inno gets the most money from and is probably what wont change. That's great, but it's this aspect that is killing the game off! This means that either Inno drains the last cash it can from the game and then shuts it down when everyone finally gives up on it, or, dial back the profits and get people playing again. 2010 to 2014 were the golden years and new worlds back then could begin with upwards of 35 K players. Nowadays there are like, 2000 players per world and it is usually just a two horse race come the WW era. It's clear that Inno has lost sight of the original concept of Grepolis and is destroying it by trying to morph it into the cash cow they desire. Seems to me they should split the idea into two. Release classic Grepo again and keep it as it was, then create a totally new Grepolis (Grepolis warrior worlds, or some such) that follows the model that they want. Grepolis as it was, was a game that needed a variety of playing styles. The traders, the killers, the defenders, the simmers, the diplo's, the leaders. Without all these an alliance was doomed to fail. An alliance of killers only never got very far. The WW era is fantastic and if this is scrapped will, for me, put the final nail in the coffin of this game.
So that's my idea. Split Grepolis into two games. Which ever one succeeds, go with that. If they both succeed, even better.
One other point i would like to see implemented is that only the first alliance to make four wonders get's a crown. Two other alliances get a mention for making the wonders but only the winning team actually gets a crown. A crown should mean something but as it stands, any munter can get one by simply hanging around long enough. Arrant nonsense!
 

Foo Fighter

Phrourach
I see several points threading through most of the comments here and from others i know in-game.
1/ The game mechanics have been changed too much from the original.
2/ Too much emphasis on gold use.
3/ The community that point 2 has created is all about attack.
4/ Grepolis is not a total attack game and is being destroyed because Inno and the new community are trying to make it so.
5/ Total world player numbers are tanking.
I realise i'm wizzing in the wind but for me, the gold use and emphasis on attack/events on rotation, are the problem. This is the aspect of the changes to the game that Inno gets the most money from and is probably what wont change. That's great, but it's this aspect that is killing the game off! This means that either Inno drains the last cash it can from the game and then shuts it down when everyone finally gives up on it, or, dial back the profits and get people playing again. 2010 to 2014 were the golden years and new worlds back then could begin with upwards of 35 K players. Nowadays there are like, 2000 players per world and it is usually just a two horse race come the WW era. It's clear that Inno has lost sight of the original concept of Grepolis and is destroying it by trying to morph it into the cash cow they desire. Seems to me they should split the idea into two. Release classic Grepo again and keep it as it was, then create a totally new Grepolis (Grepolis warrior worlds, or some such) that follows the model that they want. Grepolis as it was, was a game that needed a variety of playing styles. The traders, the killers, the defenders, the simmers, the diplo's, the leaders. Without all these an alliance was doomed to fail. An alliance of killers only never got very far. The WW era is fantastic and if this is scrapped will, for me, put the final nail in the coffin of this game.
So that's my idea. Split Grepolis into two games. Which ever one succeeds, go with that. If they both succeed, even better.
One other point i would like to see implemented is that only the first alliance to make four wonders get's a crown. Two other alliances get a mention for making the wonders but only the winning team actually gets a crown. A crown should mean something but as it stands, any munter can get one by simply hanging around long enough. Arrant nonsense!
But you've always been a simmer (not even a good one), and not much more than that. Not a good attacker, or even defender. As a player you're a non factor as your impact in the world is basically just filling anchor points. Im sorry if you dont like hearing it, but its the truth, and truth hurts.
 

Ries Korin

Phrourach
Hello there Foo. Fantastic response to my post, going straight for the personal attack. Such a master of instant wit and ready repartee you are. Still smarting over Golgi huh
However, all i can hear is waa ha ha waaaah! Please feel free to continue to post in such a manner and let the community see what an adult baby you truly are.
Big love and have a brill new year.
 

Foo Fighter

Phrourach
Hello there Foo. Fantastic response to my post, going straight for the personal attack. Such a master of instant wit and ready repartee you are. Still smarting over Golgi huh
However, all i can hear is waa ha ha waaaah! Please feel free to continue to post in such a manner and let the community see what an adult baby you truly are.
Big love and have a brill new year.
It wasn't meant as a personal attack, just stated the facts. Are you not a simmer? Prove me wrong :p. As far as golgi, you talking about the world I won right?
 
This thread will be for discussion specific to a revamp of the end game.
It's highly unlikely that we'll be able to push through an entire new end game, but if you have any ideas on how to tweak it in any way, you can share those ideas and respond to other players' ideas here.
I believe this phase is the entire problem with Grepolis, the resource push isn't being followed by alliances at all, they meaning the leadership (People in the change of an alliance) seem to think the game needs to be completely modified beyond its original design.

First of all, the game arrives at the Wonders phase, how it get there is basically your choice, worlds speeds vary regarding the time it takes to get to this phase, world speeds are to be considered when selecting a world to play.

Second, the intent of this game is to race your alliance to push resources and accelerate the build times with favor from the gods, to the wonder islands all alliances have to do this single event in order to win the game. What happens now isn't at all like that, we will get to that a bit further in the conversation.

Third, game play isn't really being enforced and rightfully so, if you consider the intent of the players is to win at any cost, change the game rules to suit them and not in alignment with game design you have corruption of the game. This makes the game or end game so freaking boring and not really how such a war game should end. The 4 of 7 crowns wins a world and 7 of 7 crowns wins a crown a crown also. Interesting........

The old game style was to start the countdown when the 4 of 7 was attained, many years after that was changed to include a fight for the 7 of 7 crown, I saw this as a way to increase revenue rather than to keep to the games original design. I have wrestled the 7 of 7 crown attempt but it lasted way too long and most players just ghosted or quit that world. I think this needs to be modified so as to end the game exactly at the completion of the 7 of 7 crown or revert to the 30 count down like in 2012.

Now, we play with NAP's (No Attack Pacts) the tactic which was made up by players and was a way to deceive other alliances in knowing or more like NOT knowing whose alliance allies are. The appear on the world maps as red or identified as an enemy - again breach of game protocol.

Currently I'm in an alliance where we allow our own members to attack themselves to take favor or BP's to grow the Wonders or allow enhancement of resources by upgrading the farms on islands which are occupied - The rule was designed to encourage the attack of enemies or other players to gain or grow. This behavior wasn't originally designed, but was morphed into existence. All my resources are now being sent to another alliance who is actually building wonders and the alliance I belong I an not building any wonders. we are trying to compete or cheat in transferring resources to an alliance I'm no member of. Interesting the will to win at any cost, I would consider this cheating. So my overall experience is to put all my time, resources and effort into some one's win, weird how is that fun but wait there's more! At the end of the game after the wonders badges are all attained by this other alliance they will destroy an alliance themselves and invite players from the alliance who helped them cheat their way to a wain to join and complete the wonder they destroyed to give them (The Alliance enslaved to give all their resources and farmed favor to this alliance in order to circumvent the larger alliances ability to win. just to get a crown badge.

How can we fix or address this end game cheat?

Ideas to stop the current cheating Wonders Phase:

1.) Do not allow any members to send resources to any alliance other then the one they are currently assigned
2.) Disable favor farming during the Wonders Phase attacking your Pact mates or alliance members should be disallowed
3.) Do not allow members to join another alliance ever after the Wonders phase starts
4.) Do allow members to send invites to players during the Wonders Phase


Ideas for alternate end games:

1.) Have the time clock start the end game just like we do now except have a winners take all finish - Stop all building of new cities hunt down all enemies and winner take all ending unlike a Domination game
2.) Have a winners bracket style tournament, have a best of that countries server winners worlds compete with other countries server winners.
3.) Last alliance standing - winner - lock alliances from adding new members and attack until there is only one alliance

Regard,

The "Three-Toe-Mutant"
 

Itbered

Hekatontarch
I would rather see wonders released in stages instead of all at once I think that would actually create wars and stop some of the bigger factions of groups from building all the wonders at once also it would kind of stop the simmers as fighting would be constant after 3-4 months instead of dieing out

Side note if they blocked people from changing alliances people would still complain due to being backstabbed as the top members of allied groups would still group up and just leave the little guys on the curb also due to the market you could also never stop cross trading cutting out favor farming would just benfit the gold users who can just gold a extra 30 city's
 
Maybe stop the resource trade at the time wonders start and only allow people from the alliance building to send resources and favor to the wonders.

Favor Farming - A joke or cheat, you can setup this from an alliance which is appointed as a slave alliance to a larger alliance to be used as a resource and not allowed to build it's own wonders but only to serve the larger alliance. This is just an acceleration method, I presume that is understood. Attacking PACT mates or NAP mates seems outside of the game design and intent.

BP Cities - This is where you can farm for Battle Points (BP) in order to build up farming cities on resource islands. An alliance assigns an island and cities to be attacked then loads it with offensive troops or naval units with no defense values and then an attacker usually from the same alliance is assigned an attack on this overly stacked offensive city for the purpose of gaining BPs. Another corrupted perversion of game design.

Resource Chaining - NAP mate gives to PACT mate who then gives to a Wonder Island City Owner account who is usually a two person account who then monitors all incoming resources to fill wonders usually located on a wonder island. Example: I had a player who worked a day shift on the train (Amtrak) then when we was off his shift he had his friend work the swing shift they used the exact same account.

The need to win or gain the badges are an interesting priority of the addicted gamer, I have at time fell victim of the "Win at all costs" attitude but in a game with so many ways to pervert game play I feel the only real way to play is to stay within the confines of what a Conquest / Revolt / Domination world game design was intended. Anything else isn't really winning, I'm sure the Steroid player, Game hacker or loaded baseball bat athlete would admit they would and did anything they could to win whether within the design or not would openly admit "It really wasn't worth it".

I'm just interested in fairness, honesty, community and fellowship this games provides. The entire enjoyment factor of Grepolis a people (Team Oriented) War game I've been involved in for the past 4+ years.
 

dustballs1

Phrourach
A lot of the suggestions sound like they come from players who are not or have not been victors/winners whatever you call it. Winning alliances tend to roll with the punches regardless of the rules changes.

However, if you want a vicious knife fight, make the wonders pop up (one (1) of each for the server) in random locations and make people fight for them.
 

Glucimi

Peltast
Here are my suggest to make Grepolis to be great again.

Nowaday, more people earn money from forex. Why players can not earn money from this game?


Build a server to for the mode: Players can earn real money from playing game.

Some rules:

1. One account join game must pay a mount of money to join the game, example 2 dolars($) to join this server at world 2, speed 2.

Payment method: Visa card, paypal, bitcoin, ...

+ 1 dolar is for the game developer.

+ Remain 1 dolar to get about 10 diamonds in game.


- Tell a time that a player can get back real money from diamond in game.

Example: A time that a player is can get back real money from diamond in game is after there's at least one alliance finish world wonder and after that finishing time 2 months at world 2, speed 2.

If the time from start to world wonder is about 6 months, so a time that a player is can get back real money from diamond in game is after 8 months (6 + 2).

If he had 1001 diamonds at that time, that means after 8 months, he can get back about 100 dolars in his account.

(1001/10 ~= 100)

So after playing a long time, he can earn a profit about 98 dolars (100$ final minus 2$ at starting)


2. Players get 10 diamonds at start. He will start with the first city and all that diamond in his first city.

If he loses this city for a enemy, he will lose all the diamonds for that enemy.


3. If he have 2 or more cities, he can choose a city to hide all the diamonds in that city, or he can distribute all his diamonds for every city


Example:

A a player have 10 diamonds store at his first city.

After a player had second city. He can store 9 diamonds at his first city and 1 diamond at his second city.

Or he can store 10 diamonds at his first city and 0 diamond at his second city.

If he lose the city with 1 diamond, so he has 9 diamonds remain in his last city.


4. Players can exchange diamonds to gold in game.

But players can not exchange gold to diamond.


5. A player can not give his diamond to other players.

He can move diamonds to any his city like moving resource.


That means a city from this player can not move/give his diamonds to a city of other players.

But he can distribulte his diamonds from this city to other city.

While he can move/give his resource(wood, stone, silver) to any city.

And while he can give his gold to other players.


6. You can not farm the diamond, but you can farm resource.


7. If you spy a city successful, you can see the resource, infomation and the diamond in that city.


8. Once a player buy gold, he also get diamonds in his city. He must choose a city to get the diamonds.

Example:

+ If a player pay 15 dolars to buy gold, that mean he also get half of that money in diamond, in this example he also get 70 diamonds in his cites.

+ So he has more diamonds than other players at starting game at 10 diamonds.

In this example he had 80 diamonds in total.


9. When a player lose a city, if that city has diamonds, he will lose all diamonds in that city.

When a player conquer a city successful, if that city has diamonds, he will get all diamonds in that city


10. All players must protect theirs cities and most of all protect the cities have the diamonds in there.


11. Make the game more security, more contact with game developers