Inactive Topic Fix Useless Unit Types

[DeletedUser]

Proposal: Change currently useless units for balance reasons.

Reason: Certain units make very little sense to use. The game would be better balanced by giving them more realistic purpose.

Details:

Chariot: spell summoning is useful, but otherwise chariots are a waste of research points when you can use hoplites
Cyclops
Minotaurs
Erinyes: slingers have a better attack/farm ratio and don't require favor
Centaur
Fire Ships/Trireme: these are useful for attack timing tricks, but that's it
Hydras: they have both offense + defense as compared to LS/biremes which only have one, but the favor requirements and god restrictions (can't support generic cities) make these basically useless.

Visual Aids:

Balance/Abuse Prevention:

 

[DeletedUser26213]

Format, some people use these, just because you don't doesn't mean they should be removed

 

[DeletedUser]

I build chariots, just because the resource costs are not skewed towards one like hoplites....

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not saying that unit types should be removed because I personally choose not to play with them. I'm not talking about my personal play style at all.

I'm basically suggesting more unit balance. Some units have no practical use or extremely rare practical use, and I'm suggesting that the game would be better if all the unit types had a more real non-trivial purpose in the game mechanics.

 

[DeletedUser]

I can agree with you on the need of balance, as some units need better needs like triremes and centaurs

 

[Varun]

There is a simple solution to this.... Don't use those units!

But still, here are my views:

1. You have included LS in your list. That is something. They are very useful in clearing the harbour of any city and basically for spreading panic.

2. Hoplites are not always useful. Their speed is less as compared to chariots. Also, chariots have higher defence, offence and range values than the hops. Of course, they do take lots of time and resources, but still, hoplites are hoplites while chariots are chariots.

3. Cyclopes and Minotaur are very, very useful in defence. Don't take them lightly.

4. Erinyes is an extremely powerful offence and defence unit. Worth spending the favour. Can take the place of archers extremely well.

5. Hydras. You should see them in sea attacks and mostly in defence. Oh man, they do bring in lots of BP. A fleet of 20-30 hydrae is enough for making an extremely good offence and defence when backed up with LS, Bireame and Trireame.

6. Centaurs are very useful in defence, similar to archers. Mark my words.

Thus, I conclude that all the units are useful. Though in different places and different strategies. Also, in a strategy game like Grepo, no one can be overlooked......

 

[DeletedUser]

1. You have included LS in your list. That is something. They are very useful in clearing the harbour of any city and basically for spreading panic.

What list are you reading? Light ships are one of the most critical units and are definitely not on my list of worthless units.

2. Hoplites are not always useful. Their speed is less as compared to chariots. Also, chariots have higher defence, offence and range values than the hops. Of course, they do take lots of time and resources, but still, hoplites are hoplites while chariots are chariots.

Hops have 16 attack/pop ratio while chariots have 14 attack/pop ratio which makes hops better for offensive nukes when you want to pack maximum punch into a population limited army. For defense, there is an even trade off between the two. They both have 12.33 defense/pop when averaged over the three types.

4. Erinyes is an extremely powerful offence and defence unit. Worth spending the favour. Can take the place of archers extremely well.

You are using a lot of subjective language "extremely powerful", "Mark my words"... That's not necessary. Just look at the stats.

The only argument you can make for Erinyes or Hydra units is that they do both attack and defense rather than just one or the other. Slingers have a higher attack/pop ratio than Erinyes and archers have a higher defense/pop ratio. I think that hybrid both attack/defense use gives them a very esoteric practical use.

There is a simple solution to this.... Don't use those units!

Well, I don't use them when playing. I think it is a good idea for improving the game that fits the purpose of this discussion forum.

 

[DeletedUser26213]

Many people, including myself, use the units you mentioned. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean we shouldn't have the option to.

 

[DeletedUser26213]

Thanks for making me feel like a not-smart player Saska

jk

 

[DeletedUser]

Proposal: Change currently useless units for balance reasons.

Reason: Certain units make very little sense to use. The game would be better balanced by giving them more realistic purpose.

Okay, then lets take a look at what you would like to change.

Details:

Chariot: spell summoning is useful, but otherwise chariots are a waste of research points when you can use hoplites
Cyclops
Minotaurs
Erinyes: slingers have a better attack/farm ratio and don't require favor
Centaur
Fire Ships/Trireme: these are useful for attack timing tricks, but that's it
Hydras: they have both offense + defense as compared to LS/biremes which only have one, but the favor requirements and god restrictions (can't support generic cities) make these basically useless.

That is no comprehensive chariot vs hoplite argument, yes hoplites are good for offense and defense, but they are silver guzzlers, and more expensive offensive units per farm space than slingers and horsemen, not to mention that chariots consume stone as their main resource, which is very useful for land defense cities that consume a tonne of wood and silver. Their defensive ratios are the between hops and chariots, 37 per farm space, but the flipside is that chariots defend slightly better against blunt (19 per FS as opposed to 18 for hops), and have more ranged coverage (14 vs 7), their only lacking is sharp, which tends to be the least common offensive unit barring manticores and medusas.

Cyclops are sub-par attackers, but they are decent defenders when packed with a lot of archers, the downside is the unit costs for both favor and resources, and a dangerous lack of sharp coverage. I have already made a thread on changing this unit, it is titled 'Rebalanced Cyclops, and includes lower costs and a higher defense ratios.

Minotaurs are fine, barring an arguable tweak, they are 51.1666667 defense per FS, and they specialize in blunt defense, like a divine unit equivalent of a chariot, but with 14-15 more defense per FS. They go great with swords and archers, making hoplites void if you can spare the favor costs, which aren't that high compared to many other myth units.

Agreed that Erinyes needs to be changed, I would say it should be re-made into a fast, flying, 25-27 per FS ranged attacker (1375-1485 attack), with reduced defense. This is an idea I have been mulling over for a while now.

Centaurs are fine as they are, 55 defense per farm space and the cheapest myth unit (100 favor), their defense ratio making them the equivalent of a divine archer, with a gap of 12 points to their regular unit counter-part.

Fire ships are fine as they are. They take patience and skill to use, which is the only conceivably balanced way to use a suicide naval unit.

Triremes, I agree, need to changed somehow, it is probably worthwhile increasing their offensive and defensive stats, and making them an effective breakthrough unit.

Hydras have the attack rate of LS while bypassing fireships, in a way that is a strong unit, yes it costs a lot to build, but I could only see some tweaking for this unit to make it more 'useful.'

 

[DeletedUser]

What kind of tweaking, better stats or favor, farm space, or favor needs?

 

[DeletedUser]

The only "useless" units I see here are the fire ships and triremes, in which case don't research or build them. And as for the Chariot vs. Hoplite issue, it's a matter of playing style and preference - neither is useless and no one forces you to research both.


All in all the units are fine as they are, I'm sure the developers put far more thought into their balancing than most any posters ever have. Unless the change makes fireships and/or triremes actual viable units to play with and use, I'm not interested. And if you do use fireships as they are, that's nice, I just don't see the benefit for me, so don't waste your time telling me how I could use them.

 

[DeletedUser]

You don't need to get rid of a useful unit to make another unit useful. You need to balance them so they each have a more realistic trade off.

You are also right in that some people don't play the game efficiently, but I don't think that's a good argument for having inefficient unit types.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think centaurs could be made more effective with a 20 point reduction in their favor cost and the ability to carry a hoplite on their back for a combined distance & sharp attack.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think all people carrying creatures should have something like that( a Cerberus for example)

 

[DeletedUser8396]

Why is this idea even being attacked? This only improves the units. You use them now? Then you'll love em more when this passes. A thumbs up from me.

-Voice of reason

 

[DeletedUser2663]

on the note of fireships. Its a smart play unit. 8 bp for the attacker and 10 for the defender (or 16 for tri's), no matter what happens, when it comes to naval bp farming the defender will always get the best deal. so lets say 250 fireships vs 250 ls. Attacker gets 2000 abp while the defender gets 2.5k dbp. based on that who will spend more time rebuilding and gain the cp faster. we all know the answer to that. Also to counter fireships you have the hydra so its perfectly balanced, all units have their strengths and weaknesses.

In regards to centars, they are perfectly fine as they are, awesome counter for sharp and the fact you can build pegs in the same city to compliment them, oh god, do not buff athena defense, its already brutal as it is.

Apart from that horus has hit the nail on the head in regards to everything else. Just thought to add my 2 cents on those 2 units but i cant be bothered repeating everything horus has already said.

 

[DeletedUser]

That is no comprehensive chariot vs hoplite argument, yes hoplites are good for offense and defense, but they are silver guzzlers, and more expensive offensive units per farm space than slingers and horsemen, not to mention that chariots consume stone as their main resource, which is very useful for land defense cities that consume a tonne of wood and silver. Their defensive ratios are the between hops and chariots, 37 per farm space, but the flipside is that chariots defend slightly better against blunt (19 per FS as opposed to 18 for hops), and have more ranged coverage (14 vs 7), their only lacking is sharp, which tends to be the least common offensive unit barring manticores and medusas.

Cyclops are sub-par attackers, but they are decent defenders when packed with a lot of archers, the downside is the unit costs for both favor and resources, and a dangerous lack of sharp coverage. I have already made a thread on changing this unit, it is titled 'Rebalanced Cyclops, and includes lower costs and a higher defense ratios.

Minotaurs are fine, barring an arguable tweak, they are 51.1666667 defense per FS, and they specialize in blunt defense, like a divine unit equivalent of a chariot, but with 14-15 more defense per FS. They go great with swords and archers, making hoplites void if you can spare the favor costs, which aren't that high compared to many other myth units.

Agreed that Erinyes needs to be changed, I would say it should be re-made into a fast, flying, 25-27 per FS ranged attacker (1375-1485 attack), with reduced defense. This is an idea I have been mulling over for a while now.

Centaurs are fine as they are, 55 defense per farm space and the cheapest myth unit (100 favor), their defense ratio making them the equivalent of a divine archer, with a gap of 12 points to their regular unit counter-part.

Fire ships are fine as they are. They take patience and skill to use, which is the only conceivably balanced way to use a suicide naval unit.

Triremes, I agree, need to changed somehow, it is probably worthwhile increasing their offensive and defensive stats, and making them an effective breakthrough unit.

Hydras have the attack rate of LS while bypassing fireships, in a way that is a strong unit, yes it costs a lot to build, but I could only see some tweaking for this unit to make it more 'useful.'

You hit the nail on the head with this argument.

 

[DeletedUser]

tl;dr If you improve said units, the other units will be obsolete instead, and then people will complain about those.

No from me.

 

[DeletedUser]

Agreed that Erinyes needs to be changed, I would say it should be re-made into a fast, flying, 25-27 per FS ranged attacker (1375-1485 attack), with reduced defense. This is an idea I have been mulling over for a while now.

Sounds great.

I think all people carrying creatures should have something like that( a Cerberus for example)

This would make the Pegasus defense more effective, but I personally think all in all this might be a good idea.

Although Hydras are more efficient on a per-population basis than tiremes, tiremes can be built with no favor, making them both useful in a conquest server. Perhaps tweaking the centaur wouldn't hurt, if it had 500 resource capacity it would be an awesome farmer. Minotaurs are good as are. There's my 2 cents, or perhaps a nickel.