Grepolis United: DevBlog and Rebalancing General Discussion Thread

joseph-laff

Phrourach
Ok here we go.

We noticed that chariots and slingers get built twice as often as horsemen.

This would be because horsemen take up the res required to make LS and FT's they require VERY little stone so it is much much easier to build up a chariot /sling nuke than it is to build up a horse nuke. It has nothing to do with how powerful they arnt as they are already a VERY strong unit to attack with.

Imo (although the buff to them is great) if you want to make them used more simply rebalance the res required to produce them and you will see a change.

Catapults were pretty unpopular. This might be due to the high consumption of population, that's why we plan to reduce the required population value from 15 to 10.


Ok most people i have spoken to seem to be under the illusion that Cats are for burning walls only.

This would be 1 reason why they seem to not being used as much as people should be using them. Most players tend to try and clear a city first with troops then use 1 cat attack to burn a wall.

The other reason i tend to get when trying to educate people on the importance of using more cats is that "they take too much time to build" these people are also wrong as if u look at timers on a pop-pop ratio there is only a few minutes more to build 1 cat - 15 slings/hops/5 horse.

IMO cats are good the way they are players just need educating better (and this isnt the thread for me to do that). But a pop reduction will allow me to have more troops to escort my already heavily used cats so im not going to complain.

We have also seen that mythical units get built too rarely and that we should make adjustments there, too. In that regard we significantly lowered the favor costs while increasing the resource costs. Most of the offensive mythical units will be buffed

Absolutely brilliant i couldnt agree more. For the favor cost and the time spent building a nuke of Myths plus the fact that they dont benefit from commander, phalanx or heroism they should 100% get a buff to make up for this obvious oversight.

We propose changing the speed of the Trireme from 9 to 24 and increase the damage from 180 to 250

Since these things are pretty damn useless any buff on this unit will be a good thing. I cant really comment on this much till i see them put into practice but id have to say i can already see them having a place in certain situations.

However, they don't fight against transport and Colony Ships. We would like to ask you - independently of our own ideas - to have a think and make some proposals on how to change the Fire Ship.

Ok my idea for this unit would be simple. Keep everything the same but make it able to attack also. In situations where a harbor is stacked with thousands of biremes LS nukes take heavy loses for very little gains unless you get decent luck on hits (but who here does -_-). If they could attack going 1-1 with biremes they would have there place in many players arsenals.

Keeping the speed the same would make them easy to spot and dodge. So the best time to use this unit would be on stacked harbors only and not a general use just for attacking random players.

It would also mean you would have to be close to a player to use them effectively due too travel times.

Diplomacy will in future decrease the chance of a (farm village) revolt by only 10%, but in return the technology will increase the amount of resources you get from demanding and looting by 10%. You will also get to trade with a farm village up to a mood of 60%

Good change sure but as you get bigger you just dont need the res the farms provide. So this would only be useful early on when you have very few cities and not much res to spare. I can see this maybe being used for the first few months on each world then just being binned for something more useful.

The Espionage technology will increase the amount of silver coins of your spy by 10% when sending him away for an Espionage

Awesome sauce. Much better than speed on your spy lol generally i just use a closer city if i want a fast report :p

Cryptography is good to counter an espionage. If you research this technology and an enemy spy infiltrates your city, you will lose 10% less silver coins from your cave

I hope this means your upping it by another 10% to 30% total and not making it 10% total....? That would suck big time. If it is upping it to 30% then i think ill be switching a few points round in my cities :D

The research of Breakthrough had a too low an impact when attacking other cities and trying get your transport ships through. We will decrease the overall chance for a transport ship to breakthrough by 30% if you do not have the research. In return, the research will increase the chance for a transport ship to arrive by an additional 10% compared to the way it works now

If im reading this right then this is not cool at all. The 1 change i would make to this research is simple. Make it a passive buff like phalanx rather than an attack as i prefer to send every single attack as a revolt attack and not have to send breakthrough's :p

The research Meteorology increases the speed of land units, but the opportunity to research it comes too late in the game. That's why we think about putting this research into the first column, so that you can start researching meteorology with the very first academy level

Only useful for Manti/Harpy/Peg nukes (pegs being used for Def ofc). Even with the change it will still never enter many player acads because it is so damn useless unless your city is dedicated too a flying myth nuke.

The Lighthouse will increase the speed of your ships by 20% instead of 10%.

Brilliant.

The Oracle will be replaced by the "War Council". The War Council will increase the offensive values of your land and sea units by 10%

Brilliant.

Merchant Shop change

Defo a big improvement.
 

VladamirHadra

Guest
I have a suggestion here. I have heard so many comments on the forums trashing the World Wonders, and saying that the winners of the WWs are just sim players.
I suggest that for each world that comes out, there are two. Both have the same speed, but for one of the worlds, you have to put battle points into the Wonders instead of resources. The other will keep the same type of Wonders that have been going. This will give people a choice, so that the people that would rather fight go to the BP oriented Wonders world, and the people that would rather build could go to the resource oriented Wonders world. Also, every 5 or 10 pairs of worlds, there could be a world without Wonders, so those people that just want to play Grepolis like it was played in 1.26 can play in those worlds.
Another thing about Wonders, they should be able to be won more than one time. Maybe up to 3 times, so that people will still have a reason to stay around after the first round of Wonders have been finished.
People could also win awards for giving certain amounts to the Wonders. I am sure that many alliances would like that, because some have a problem with people not giving to the Wonders, and this would give an extra incentive.

People should also get gold, or an award for staying until the end of a world. When a world ends, all that the players get is a red error message saying that "This world has ended, please select another world"(or something like that). There should be a celebration for those that stayed until the end. There should also be a small gold award for this.
People should earn gold for being the #1 defender, #1 attacked, or #1 conqueror of the day/week/month.

Some of these ideas have been inspired by others that have posted in other threads, but I have put my own touch on them, and I would really hope that the devs read and consider these ideas.
 

snake223

Guest
question about merchant it says you can transfer instantly now this what would want to know does the two cities gotta have the merchant shop or is it just the one

for e.g. my city A is on the front line it has a tower, my city B is deep down in a ocean where no enemies are or few it has a merchant shop can I instantly put the resources to city A?
 

snake223

Guest
However, they don't fight against transport and Colony Ships. We would like to ask you - independently of our own ideas - to have a think and make some proposals on how to change the Fire Ship


why build fire ship when they get hit last put them infront of bireme only way get ones to build them
 

snake223

Guest
also while cats are useful on a revolt world on a conquest world they are useless with myth attacks killing a conquest
 

pgk2003

Phrourach
TO BE CLEAR: I have no problem with the proposed changes, just a problem with them being implemented in currently running worlds

I think it is ridiculous that you are making rebalancing changes to worlds that have been playing for months now. I, like most others who know what they're doing, optimize my cities based on the current unit and building strengths and weaknesses. It already takes hundreds of culture points to open up an additional city spot, now you want me to waste them on resetting academies to take advantage of these changes? The only people this benefits outright are those who are new to a world or those who colonize cities. Why am I, a long time player on my server, being punished? In an attempt to make gameplay more fair you are actually making it unfair.

You should seriously consider rolling out these changes on new servers only. Technically this may make your job more difficult, but by making changes in the middle of game play you are setting a bad precedent. What's to say that in another month the data will show you that additional rebalancing needs to be done. Or that some of the changes you make this time actually make the game less balanced and need to be undone. Am I supposed to keep research points free, just in case you decide that another rebalancing is in order?

On a related note, I understand that it makes sense to use previous data to better balance the game, and am confident that the values you are considering have been mathematically vetted. But you really have no idea what the actual effect of these major changes will be on gameplay. Sure you can tell me that by making the Triremes faster, you think more people will use them. But will that actually happen? Given the fact that it will require culture points that some people just don’t have free, I am inclined to say no. This further strengthens my suggestion that you roll out changes on new servers only. This way, your estimates of the effects of changes are actually validated by more data instead of through an unproven mathematical model or your best guess.

I myself am a game developer and can appreciate the difficulty of keeping a game fair and balanced. But I think for this type of major change (that will affect fundamental strategy), there is benefit to more thought, planning and testing surrounding the implementation rather than a “throw it at the wall and see if it sticks” strategy.
 
Last edited:

-Achilles-

<a href="http://forum.en.grepolis.com/showthread.p
also while cats are useful on a revolt world on a conquest world they are useless with myth attacks killing a conquest
It is not just about destroying the walls, cats make your attacks stronger so you lose less slingers/horsemen etc.
 

Shingzu

Guest
TO BE CLEAR: I have no problem with the proposed changes, just a problem with them being implemented in currently running worlds

I think it is ridiculous that you are making rebalancing changes to worlds that have been playing for months now.
Very well put and I agree to 100%. +rep for that.
 

unhyped

Phrourach
TO BE CLEAR: I have no problem with the proposed changes, just a problem with them being implemented in currently running worlds

I think it is ridiculous that you are making rebalancing changes to worlds that have been playing for months now. I, like most others who know what they're doing, optimize my cities based on the current unit and building strengths and weaknesses. It already takes hundreds of culture points to open up an additional city spot, now you want me to waste them on resetting academies to take advantage of these changes? The only people this benefits outright are those who are new to a world or those who colonize cities. Why am I, a long time player on my server, being punished? In an attempt to make gameplay more fair you are actually making it unfair.

You should seriously consider rolling out these changes on new servers only. Technically this may make your job more difficult, but by making changes in the middle of game play you are setting a bad precedent. What's to say that in another month the data will show you that additional rebalancing needs to be done. Or that some of the changes you make this time actually make the game less balanced and need to be undone. Am I supposed to keep research points free, just in case you decide that another rebalancing is in order?

On a related note, I understand that it makes sense to use previous data to better balance the game, and am confident that the values you are considering have been mathematically vetted. But you really have no idea what the actual effect of these major changes will be on gameplay. Sure you can tell me that by making the Triremes faster, you think more people will use them. But will that actually happen? Given the fact that it will require culture points that some people just don’t have free, I am inclined to say no. This further strengthens my suggestion that you roll out changes on new servers only. This way, your estimates of the effects of changes are actually validated by more data instead of through an unproven mathematical model or your best guess.

I myself am a game developer and can appreciate the difficulty of keeping a game fair and balanced. But I think for this type of major change (that will affect fundamental strategy), there is benefit to more thought, planning and testing surrounding the implementation rather than a “throw it at the wall and see if it sticks” strategy.

Listen to this Inno! If this is the feedback your getting, don't make the changes!
 

BigJim35

Guest
I also suggest that you leave the run time for Theater Plays as is currently. However, switch the costs with the City Festivals, and as a reward give us 3.5 Culture points.
I have a few suggestions that I feel would make the game more interesting.


I think this would encourage more people to build the Theater and also make the game more interesting.

I have suggested this before. I still think that we should get battle points when we attack a village and for killing militia, both on our own island and when we attack an enemy. Even if it were at a reduced rate, say 50% that of player to player attacks. This would at least off set the cost for recruitment of units lost in these types of attacks.

Get rid of the Fire Ships! IMO, they are completely useless and a complete waste of resources and population. Replace them with pirate ships l that will allow us to steal opponents ships and troops. I think that it would really make the game much more interesting. Make them somewhat expensive to produce both in terms of resources and population requirements so that a player does not end up with an entire fleet of pirate ships. Think in terms of cost of the Colony Ship.

This is a tactic used by both the Greeks and Romans.
 

mango97

Phrourach
The rebalancing will be included in a future update.

Thanks.
is it possible to be more specific? Just a ball park range - even if its just a very rough estimate? ie 6-12 months or something. We wont hold it against you if your wrong ;)
 

Iphigenie

Guest
Okay so here are my thoughts on the rebalancing:

Special buildings changes:
It's not that the Lighthouse isn't worth building. But you make it so that we have to choose between the Lighthouse or the Thermal Baths. There is no situation in my gameplay where I'd rather have faster ships and fewer population to work with. The same goes for the Theatre: I earn the majority of my culture points via victory parades, so having a third option for earning CP is in no way more important than more population even if you made the theatre plays only cost 500 of each resource.

The Divine Statue's effects can be had exactly the same if you just add another city with the same god. The Library is a hassle because if you inherit a city that's built one, you can't remove it if they've used up the research points -- but you can demolish the academy without one, if you've used your original allotment of research points? There's no benefit to the Library or the Divine Statue at all that's worth putting them above the other buildings. These would need additional benefits added in order to make them more worthwhile.

If, perhaps, the buildings were placed at the bottom so that you could choose any 2 of the 8, rather than choose 1 of four options on each side, you'd definitely see an increase in certain buildings. For example I would LOVE to build cities with both a Lighthouse and a Thermal Baths. Or even a Tower and a Merchant Shop. But the way it is I can't do that, and even with the proposed changes I still wouldn't exchange the Thermal Baths for any of the other three options on the left side, and I'm willing to bet most seasoned players wouldn't either. Extra population is probably the most favoured buff regardless of how attractive the other buildings might be. Until/unless there's a second population-buff on the other side (which I certainly don't expect) the Thermal Baths will always be the landslide winner in that contest.

Tech changes:
Meteorology gets top billing here. Meteorology increases the speed of your land troops up to 10%. This means it is only effective when your troops attack(or support) cities on the same island. Catapults are the slowest unit and as a result are almost never sent over land, but via transports EVEN if the city's on the same island. So taking catapults out of the equation, I've never seen a land army take above 30 minutes to travel between cities on the same island. This means that the tech only decreases travel time by a maximum of THREE minutes. Regardless of when it can be researched, it is still not a worthwhile tech when 98% of your battles and supports will go by sea. All this will do is frustrate players who conquer cities and then have to spend the culture point to unresearch it, in order to use the research points for something far more worthwhile. Islands just aren't that big, in terms of travel time. (Granted, I only ever play speed 2/speed 3 worlds, but I still can't see this being that huge a deal even on the slowest speed worlds.)

With your other comments: of COURSE Plow is the most popular tech. See above comments re: population. No player will EVER give up population. The more population you have, the bigger your army is; the bigger your army is, the stronger it is. That's how this game has been designed. Until a city with no plow and no baths can have an army equally as effective as a city with both plow and baths, these will always be far and away the most popular choices.

I do like seeing the changes to diplomacy and espionage. It does make them more attractive, and I probably wouldn't instantly blow the CP to un-research them in newly conquered cities. However, I still don't think I'd research them myself. Too many other techs have greater value and don't become less useful just because these are not as useless as they were before.

Unit changes:
All good news! I would love to see the triremes become more effective. They never get used in revolt worlds because of their cost and slowness, so speeding them up and making them stronger will definitely earn them a place. I'm not sure how I'd change my strategies to include them as yet, but I'm sure I would.

Cheaper myth units would be wonderful as well. The drawback to building them is the time required to build up the favour to make one. For example: Manticore nukes, while super effective, often take weeks to build up and seconds to destroy completely, which is a major disappointment and really feels like almost a waste, like you're not getting back what you put into building it. Being able to get them faster because of lower favour requirements would definitely increase the number of mythical attacks.

I saw upthread about adding in Artemis or possibly even increasing the favour for larger players. I would tend to agree. 500 favour for a 5-city player means a whole lot more than 500 favour for a 50-city player. A player with 5 cities finds, for example, a Wedding or a Kingly Gift that much more valuable; someone with 50 cities doesn't. I can't imagine how a bigger favour could be implemented without being a major disadvantage, or only being scaled with growth. Maybe every 10 temples provides an additional 10 favour, or something.

For the horsemen vs. chariots debate: please consider that you can receive all units via spells EXCEPT horsemen. Athena's Patroness allows slingers, archers, hoplites, and swordsmen to be given to a city; Zeus' Divine Sign allows chariots to be given to a city. You can't spell horses to anyone. Perhaps that should be added somewhere.


I think that's all my comments for now. :)