Im not done yet!

Ruggler

Hipparchus
Alright I said I was done posting but I came back to check and see what was happening...You might want to lower that goal on that petition. 50 people might actually be the active player base at this rate.
I mean I’m just trying to hinder the rate of decrease in grepolis players. I mean surely an unjust mod isn’t a settling thing for many players. It’s like having a bias judge in a courtroom, no good.
 

malcinator2

Hoplite
I mean I’m just trying to hinder the rate of decrease in grepolis players. I mean surely an unjust mod isn’t a settling thing for many players. It’s like having a bias judge in a courtroom, no good.
I'm sorry, but there is no way you can convince me there are corrupt or unjust mods. Unless you have screenshots of mods actually saying, or agreeing to something I will not believe you (and not just screenshots of a player telling you something happened, people lie or exaggerate).

I suspect the issue with mods stems largely from the fact that the majority of this player base is often unpleasant to deal with, and the volunteer mods stopped putting up with it.
 

Raydium88

Phrourach
I mean I’m just trying to hinder the rate of decrease in grepolis players. I mean surely an unjust mod isn’t a settling thing for many players. It’s like having a bias judge in a courtroom, no good.
Let me stop you there. This isn't a court room, nor the judicial system... This is a game. And in every game, sport or esport, there are referees who moderate how the game is played. Players should firstly get off their high horses and realise this.

People love to complain about the mods, and lately the addition of punishment under the Fair Play rule. Which should remain subjective in order to avoid creating loopholes by the same players who wanna exploit it. Is as simple as that. Every other game or sport, has subjective or implied rules... if a footballer blinds his opponent with dirt to their eyes, there's no explicit rule about it... is within people's morality to establish what is right or wrong... fair or unfair. If you don't know right from wrong, ask any 7 year old child, they probably can make that judgement for you.

Here's what I understand about this "petition" and the latest corruption accusations. This is an effort from and by the same people who want to continue their bullying and toxic practices in-game, and are now butthurt someone is finally stepping up to them. Which subsequently feed into their friends' confirmation bias to appear as if a mod is unfair, when in fact isn't. To which I say, you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

I lost this world, to what I call and yet consider cheaters and spammers of the worst toxic kind. I wish more could have been done about it by the moderation team. Do I feel wronged? No, because if I were pissy anytime mods did something I didnt agree with, then I'd be quick to jump on the bandwagon. But that doesn't prove to me anyone is corrupt, or unfair, or favouring their friends... all you lot have is words and your claims of unfairness. But no actual evidence of a mod acting out of line, to back anything up. Doesn't help the players setting up this "petition" are the same kind of players who use and abuse of these game mechanics and have drawn a lot more players to quit. So I'm sorry if I am sceptical.

This is not a petition for any just cause... this is a witch hunt.
 
Last edited:

Pete Dunham

Phrourach
Let me stop you there. This isn't a court room, nor the judicial system... This is a game. And in every game, sport or esport, there are referees who moderate how the game is played. Players should firstly get off their high horses and realise this.

People love to complain about the mods, and lately the addition of punishment under the Fair Play rule. Which should remain subjective in order to avoid creating loopholes by the same players who wanna exploit it. Is as simple as that. Every other game or sport, has subjective or implied rules... if a footballer blinds his opponent with dirt to their eyes, there's no explicit rule about it... is within people's morality to establish what is right or wrong... fair or unfair. If you don't know right from wrong, ask any 7 year old child, they probably can make that judgement for you.

Here's what I understand about this "petition" and the latest corruption accusations. This is an effort from and by the same people who want to continue their bullying and toxic practices in-game, and are now butthurt someone is finally stepping up to them. Which subsequently feed into their friends' confirmation bias to appear as if a mod is unfair, when in fact isn't. To which I say, you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

I lost this world, to what I call and yet consider cheaters and spammers of the worst toxic kind. I wish more could have been done about it by the moderation team. Do I feel wronged? No, because if I were pissy anytime mods did something I didnt agree with, then I'd be quick to jump on the bandwagon. But that doesn't prove to me anyone is corrupt, or unfair, or favouring their friends... all you lot have is words and your claims of unfairness. But no actual evidence of a mod acting out of line, to back anything up. Doesn't help the players setting up this "petition" are the same kind of players who use and abuse of these game mechanics and have drawn a lot more players to quit. So I'm sorry if I am sceptical.

This is not a petition for any just cause... this is a witch hunt.
In no sport ever is it a good or acceptable thing to have a rule that isnt written down and is down to the subjective opinion of a referee/mod.

if it doesnt exist, you cant punish people for it, if it does exist without explanation and boundries it leaves space for bias and subjectivness.

and in no way is subjectivness good. Im gonna assume you are a sports fan, so here is a comparison. Im neither for or against the way the Detroit "Bad Boys" Pistons won their two titles, but since there were no clear rules on how much the referees would allow they were able to win it twice in a row in a way no other team after them can win it. try doing now what Bill Laimbeer did back then and you get suspended. so you get a team that abused its way to 2 rings and no other team can do it again.
and thats a big mistake. either the rules should have been clear that no one can do it, or everyone else gets to do it afterwards.

and no one today is saying but its okay the refs let it slide then. everyone blames the refs for not being clear on the rules then and stoping it from happening.
 

Raydium88

Phrourach
In no sport ever is it a good or acceptable thing to have a rule that isnt written down and is down to the subjective opinion of a referee/mod.

if it doesnt exist, you cant punish people for it, if it does exist without explanation and boundries it leaves space for bias and subjectivness.

and in no way is subjectivness good. Im gonna assume you are a sports fan, so here is a comparison. Im neither for or against the way the Detroit "Bad Boys" Pistons won their two titles, but since there were no clear rules on how much the referees would allow they were able to win it twice in a row in a way no other team after them can win it. try doing now what Bill Laimbeer did back then and you get suspended. so you get a team that abused its way to 2 rings and no other team can do it again.
and thats a big mistake. either the rules should have been clear that no one can do it, or everyone else gets to do it afterwards.

and no one today is saying but its okay the refs let it slide then. everyone blames the refs for not being clear on the rules then and stoping it from happening.
I can see your point, and perhaps was not fair of me to generalize the issue like I have. Every game or sport is different. It so happens for Grep, if you objectively define what's ok or isnt in regards to spam... you are leaving a lot of loopholes for players to exploit. Because how you define spam and what you deem acceptable or fair is based around context.

I would suggest reading this if you haven't already. A lot of the issues we've been talking, and why objective rules don't work can be found there.

As for bias and subjectiveness... you will never be able to eradicate players' perception of bias. And let me tell you why. No player who has ever gotten themselves banned, will admit to their teammates or friends, of any wrongdoing. Is always something on the lines:

"this was unfair... I didnt do anything... I never used a bot... I didnt spam... was only 20 attacks... I only have this account"

Subsequently, not many teammates will ever want to possibly admit their friend might just be lying, or cheating... or a douche.... for a lack of a better word. This already creates an irrational feeling of bias, which when then compared to an enemy not getting banned for the same apparent reason as one's friend... confirmation bias kicks in "it must be because mods are corrupt. Or because mods have/are friends with the enemy alliance"................. sigh* just, think.
 

Fatfingers

Hoplite
1 Rules should be clear and Listed somewhere... (not hidden)
2 "If you violate a rule you will be punished" (with a clear process as to who/when/how punishment will be given)
3 Mods should be able to explain Why the rule was applied (with a method for players and mods to go to for explanation) MODS must be able to give a clear reason for WHY they were banned - the response from mods that they cannot explain due to protecting game code etc. is not acceptable.
4 When there are grey areas that happen (and they will - it happens with rules and laws in real life}
- Grey areas are when judgement comes into play - The player has an opportunity to explain Why what they did is not considered breaking the rule... also the mod can explain why they consider it breaking the rules ... this process helps to clarify the rules when they may be ambiguous or require further clarification.
- These grey areas should be the function of the council, mods and devs to determine what wording in the rule needs to be clarified so it is not ambiguous or rewritten.
- Grey areas occur when the same action done by two different players can and do receive different interpretations - one being okay and one being punishable - then this is not acceptable if Mods/Devs cannot supply us a method to quickly and definitively determine and explain Why/How/When etc Rules Was or Was Not broken - then we need to remove the rule or the Grey ...
(example: 1 Spam or H/C if we can't get rid of spam because we can't distinguish between h/c or spam - it is because we have to determine the intent of the player sending the small attacks - so we could consider removing the advantage gained by doing H/C on Enemy cities (OH NO no h/c - well if it is to find out city/harbour information - remove that function from the small h/c on enemy cities - why should the attacker gain an advantage of pestering players with useless attacks and also gain an advantage of knowing information on the enemy city - so change the % troops required to gain harbour/troop information from attacks on an enemy city - Harbour information / City Wall / Hero information only given on higher level attacks, Sieges, and Blue on Blue/Green - you can still send small attacks - but will gain NO INFO about city content - also we have a spy system to find out city content - adapt it - if it is too strong a defensive tactic - then consider changing type of spy -- harbour information - city information - prorated information (10,000 spy against 100,000 cave - you get 10% of the information selected) of course these suggestions are just examples of how to look at the problem and solution in a different way and not meant to be adopted but to show that there are other methods to explore in solving Grey areas
 

Musas Schatz

Hoplite
I'm sorry, but there is no way you can convince me there are corrupt or unjust mods. Unless you have screenshots of mods actually saying, or agreeing to something I will not believe you (and not just screenshots of a player telling you something happened, people lie or exaggerate).

I suspect the issue with mods stems largely from the fact that the majority of this player base is often unpleasant to deal with, and the volunteer mods stopped putting up with it.
Exactly. I havent seen any proof regarding corrupt mods. Yet these people act like corrupt mods would be a fact. Its not. And it is shameless to start a petition to get a mod fired because of some hurt feelings.

The spam issue cant be solved with clear rules and limits. At the same time we cant ignore it, because almost daily players quit the game due to spam. Hundreds already have: Every legit player does not support spam. Thats why the fair play rule is the best way to handle the spam issue. It is an individuell decision by the mods and its the best we can get. 99,9% of legit players wont have any issues regarding fair play rule. Is this rule 100% fair? no, defo not, but its much better than the way spam was handled before.
 

Ifunnyuser2

Hipparchus
For the fair play rule to be legitimate, uses of it need to be made public so that they can be turned into rules as time goes on, I agree that almost all cases of spam should be bannable but using a blanket rule to cover all cases and not keeping records of its uses is creating a situation ripe for misunderstanding.
 

Drubzie

Phrourach
The problem is that whatever lines the mods draw over this issue will just then be the line that people go to to troll other players out of the game. If they say 20 attacks then people will just behave like complete douches with the 19 attacks that they are “allowed”.

The actual issue is the crappy behaviour and that will always be subjective and a matter of opinion. So surely the solution needs to be a bit more subjective and flexible based on each individual case?

As Ray said there will not be anything specific in the rules of football saying you shouldn’t jam your thumb up the opponents ar*ehole at a free kick. The player getting digitally examined will feel pretty hard done by but the culprit may think it is justified to gain the advantage.

Some people will say “fair play, just doing what needs to be done” but really most people know it’s unacceptable. And if they wrote down in the rules that you aren’t allowed to put your finger inside an opponent there would always be some Smart-Alec who would still do it and just say “it never actually went in ref!”
 
Last edited:

Pete Dunham

Phrourach
The problem is that whatever lines the mods draw over this issue will just then be the line that people go to to troll other players out of the game. If they say 20 attacks then people will just behave like complete douches with the 19 attacks that they are “allowed”.

The actual issue is the crappy behaviour and that will always be subjective and a matter of opinion. So surely the solution needs to be a bit more subjective and flexible based on each individual case?

As Ray said there will not be anything specific in the rules of football saying you shouldn’t jam your thumb up the opponents ar*ehole at a free kick. The player getting digitally examined will feel pretty hard done by but the culprit may think it is justified to gain the advantage.

Some people will say “fair play, just doing what needs to be done” but really most people know it’s unacceptable. And if they wrote down in the rules that you aren’t allowed to put your finger inside an opponent there would always be some Smart-Alec who would still do it and just say “it never actually went in ref!”
Debate aside, you win it for the effort you went trough to fully honor the finger in the bum metaphor here :D
 

Corvidaan

Lochagos
There is a rule about not being able to jam a finger up your opponent’s arsehole at a free kick.

It comes under the minimum distance from the taker, and then the contact rules for general play for the receiving players.

Also while I appreciate that by drawing a line in the sand, people will try to hug that line as closely as possible, but that is why you set the line in the correct place, so that it isn’t an issue.

...and while there will be people who try to circumnavigate the rule, that is not a reason to not have the rule at all/not publish it. “Ah well, people will just try to avoid tax anyway, so might as well just not have any legislature on taxation at all and do it all willy nilly.”

Anything bannable should be covered by at least some attempt at a rule. I would be far more forgiving of a rule that falls short or isn’t fantastic than I would be of a mod who does not use any rule at all.

Leaving something up to discretion just doesn’t really work in competitive scenarios like online games, regardless of the quality of your mods, which I understand is a topic of debate at the moment. But said quality really doesn’t matter/compare to the importance of a clear set of rules.
 
Last edited:

Drubzie

Phrourach
I mean to be fair you wouldn’t be trying to stick your finger up the bum of the person taking the kick mate. That’s never gonna fly!

Also the rule I’m talking about is don’t be a douche to other players. That is subjective?

I don’t think there is a correct, black & white place to draw the line on whether a player is being a d*ck or not.
 
Last edited:

Fatfingers

Hoplite
So yes we all agree - Spam vs HC ....
Harbour Check is a legitimate strategy players use and shouldn't be punished for
Spam is a Douche move and should be punished

Originally the game developers decided we could target any player with an attack at any time - RULE OF GAME
Players noted - they didn't have to send all of their troops in an attack - they could break it down to smaller attacks - adaption of Rule or strategy style
Players noted - if they sent small attacks they got results that were not the intent of the Rule of Game
1 They gained online information about the player- did he dodge or respond
2 They gained information about the players troops and ships located in the city
3 They gained information about the hero in the city - knowing hero gives you potential info about city Defensive troops/Offensive troops
4 They gained information about Resources in the Warehouse and God Favor - which knowing that also tells you if player has been offline for awhile
5 If they attacked their own team mates city after a trip was killed - they could determine if city was safe.

Everyone agrees that the above is good use of game mechanics to create strategy and an advantage although we don't want the h/c to be misused as follows

Players hate multiple small attacks of this style happening to either
1 every player on an island
2 One player hit on every city
3 Repetitive - every few minutes or hourly etc.
4 Constant and non relenting

So how can we tell what is in the mind of the sender - Did he really want info - or just to pester

So maybe we need to change the role of the harbour check - maybe we should make it cost a little more to send a h/c. Currently it might cost a player sending h/c to all cities on an island - a cities worth of troops (maybe) - sent to 19 cities on island ... but in return he gets the data from 19 cities/player and has the effect of making 19 players all scramble to hide resources, spend favour, and hide troops by dodging or ensure troops/ships there are sufficient to fend off a full or small attack. I think that harbour check style attacks should cost the sender more to make it consistent with the information they obtain.
 

1saaa

Phrourach
What about dink attacks? This is a legitimate grey area I'd be interested in exploring. For example. If you are OPing a specific player is sending in large numbers of fake attacks towards one city to draw support a legitimate strategy? Or is it spam?
 

Fatfingers

Hoplite
You are correct - they could be spam or considered a legitimate strategy - to confuse the player and hopefully sneak in a CS - but I think they cross the line when the intent is to bog down the servers and player cannot respond to attacks. but again if the cost was more than just losing a few dudes - I think the nuisance ones might stop
 

Raydium88

Phrourach
Here's what I think. Any form of spam, that has no strategic value to it = ban. And no, spamming someone so they can't sleep for days and turn their alarm off, is not a strategy... that's harassment. This includes flash spamming, also. This includes colonizing on ocean 12 to send 20h+ long TT minimal attacks to players you don't like, or got hired to spam.

Fakes as part of an OP... Attacks every 5 mins to prevent a player golding units in a pinch... Spam to mess up a self snipe attempt... Island HCs to gather info on all islanders... Spy bombs... Send/recalls as part of timing... Any of these, that are not long-lasting, non relenting forms of harassment, and constitute genuine strategies... absolutely fine. And it will not deter anyone to be as aggressive as they wanna be.

Far beyond me to insult anyone's intelligence but... is really not that hard. One just needs common sense, and ask himself.... "is this douchy?".
 
Last edited: