Masters of Athens

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
Just wondering ... what would you have done if we'd chosen "0 wall/with 3k slingers at all WW cities" defence ?
We had differing opinions over whether to go for big walls+def.troops, or no walls+slingers

I simmed multiple scenarios and concluded its better to have big walls + troops, and break sieges with LS, but others prefer no wall with slingers so on-island slings can break siege. That didn't sim well against follow up attacks though as far as I could see !
 

kdaroks

Phrourach
Yah well played guys, im still having a chuckle of the tactics used, as you know the crew in o45 are not scared to use zero wall....but meh.

I will be playing calydon under the name Bent Nose if you wanna tear it up with me there, you guys have been a great advisary from the very start.
Look the triads have done a great job and trying to be all technical about things is , the end game was won fair and square by you guys so well done.
 

Djrlol

Phrourach
Leo its a decision, once you commit to high walls and tower you have to commit a vast number of units to defend them; due to the stacking effects of walls the actual amount of defensive LU we needed to hold a siege was limited.

Had you gone with 1 or 0 Walls and no towers we would of needed vastly more timed defense just to hold of the initial attacks of 3k Slings or Hops but then the sheer speed and force flyer nukes can hit with. If you remember the first time I siege your Pyramids we sent catapults and destroyed the wall, your flyers killed 60k+ of our LU and broke the siege.

Tactically had you gone 0 wall we would of been unable to sacrifice bireme numbers for obvious reasons meaning we would of had to either sacrifice offensive capability for more defense and most likely as well we would of needed more cities to provide support on top of that we didn't have to use 100s of city's trying to support world wonders with high walls. At 4+ wonders if we had high walls everywhere think about how much support would be needed to be effective...it is not possible in my opinion to effectively cover that many cities.

When world wonders started I spoke to alot of players, many were quite happy playing in safe oceans like 24, 34, 35 rather than force them to try to fight in enemy territory they happily built support, played their game but built multiple flyer nukes for when we really needed.

Flyer nukes are devastatingly effective on low walls, in my opinion the smart money is making sure you have active peeps after that its down to light ship numbers but if you use 0 wall now you have another option.

My 2 cents
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
Mmm, I suspect the optimal solution depends on how many Wonder cities you have !

7 Wonders, 140 WW cities, then low wall is probably better given say 1 million troops = c. just 7k defence per city
but with 1 wonder, 20 cities, then high wall is probably better given = c. 50k defence per city (a lot more impressive)

Depends on the ratio of allied/enemy cities within range too, there seem to be sweet-spots for both solutions with a tipping point between them that switches which has preference over the other.

Towards the end, we never got the scale I thought we should, due to tapering off in activity
 

Omniverso

Phrourach
To clarify a little bit:
Masters of Athens is the Achievement for First to build 4 wonders. Rulers of Athens will be awarded to the first alliance to build all 7 wonders. The Hall of Fame lists MoRC as Victors of world Athens. Triad will be listed as the "Masters of Athens".
Inno may not send out the notification and all the items you linked, Leo, but Triad will still be immortalized in the HoF just like you are.

Leo, I am not trying to rewrite history. Yes, MoRC has the Achievement for 4 WW's, but that achievement is ill-conceived. We would have broken your Pyramids island if not for the CS bug that crippled us.

Digi, Hopefully we have posted the credit to our Allies that you requested we post. Also, for players of our size, Triad with 90+ members and holding, our total bireme count is most likely over 110k. I'm sure MoRC and other alliances have fairly impressive numbers too...

Fara, Nika, KD, Since we were old NN mates, even after all the downfall and dissolution that happened, we kept it civil. I appreciate your honor and someday we will fight together again, I'm Sure of it.

http://en.grepolis.com/start/hall_of_fame?world_id=en25&action=index&world_type=0
 

Djrlol

Phrourach
Mmm, I suspect the optimal solution depends on how many Wonder cities you have !

7 Wonders, 140 WW cities, then low wall is probably better given say 1 million troops = c. just 7k defence per city
but with 1 wonder, 20 cities, then high wall is probably better given = c. 50k defence per city (a lot more impressive)

Depends on the ratio of allied/enemy cities within range too, there seem to be sweet-spots for both solutions with a tipping point between them that switches which has preference over the other.

Towards the end, we never got the scale I thought we should, due to tapering off in activity
Leo we cleared Longshanks with alot spare he would of needed more than double what he had, the addition of the 30% quest bonus also needs to be factored in. Same for defense, Fara, nika etc attacked Vegiv he popped 30% bonus on the city and we bireme stacked, if a player logs on with siege en route almost certainly biremes will be used so my opinion is that the amount of resources freed up by 0 wall makes it favourable strategy, also this world went on when we were fighting for the initial 4 wonders we all had alot less cities thus increasing the effectiveness of 3k on island land nukes due to less overall support.
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
Yes, MoRC has the Achievement for 4 WW's, but that achievement is ill-conceived. We would have broken your Pyramids island if not for the CS bug that crippled us. ~ Omniverso
Sorry Omni, thats a purely hypothetical argument that has no effect on the actual outcome:

1. we dont know what other effects server lag had on that and other sieges. Supports may have been delayed that would have arrived etc. Its impossible to say you would have broken the Pyramid if there had been no lag. Its like a dodgy refereeing decisions in a sports match, you can argue the pro's and con's all day, but ultimately the result stands. Maybe we'd have broken the siege. Maybe MORC would have been angered into pressed you even harder and won the 7 Wonders too !?!? Maybe alliances that arose as a consequence, wouldn't have. Hypothetical arguments just open an infinite series of alternative outcomes that are impossible to untangle.

2. your allies have said themselves they have deliberately USED server lag against us to make it difficult for us to snipe Wonder breaking CS's (yesterdays for example) ... so we know the lag has worked for you as well as against you. Its effectively another randomiser that cuts both ways ... sometimes in your favour, sometimes against you.

3.even if we had lost the Pyramid, then our full team would then have played on instead of retiring after Victory was achieved, so based on our prior WW lead ... the balance of probability is we would have just won with another Wonder instead.

4. If you've worked in software development you'll know that a load-stress problem like server-lag is unlikely to have only occurred once. Its likely to occur numerous times, and probably averages out who was favoured and who wasnt. People tend to notice the times it works against them !

So ... you have to stick to the facts, and the facts are MORC completed 4 Wonders first, and that was the requirement for Athens victory.

Basically the bottom line is defined by Grepolis: each world has one Winner, and in Athens ... MORC was it.
Once that was achieved players leave, the competition is no longer the same, so its impossible to claim a subsequent victory over-rides the first. Otherwise every sporting fixture ever played would be plagued by the losing side sneakily trying to play-on after the final whistle and scoring goals much to the disgust of the winners who are halfway off the pitch heading for the dressing room !
 
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Djrlol

Phrourach
Leo you won the four wonders what is rare is that alliance not taking all seven as well. As i admitted it was a shame that we did not slug it out without the server bug. You guys deserved your award I just dislike the fact at first Inno refused to admit there was a bug (support landing 5 minute before attacks etc is just plain moronic for a game and left a bad taste). Just as we earned the right to all seven, which achievement is harder is open to debate hence the greatness of the server that it was such a fight.

Denial of service attacks so to speak forcing a player to lag such as on Pyramids and Willow is a very valid strategy that requires great team play, debate the merits of each achievement but please don't compare forcing a player to lag making snipes very tough with a programming bug that caused attacks an supports within a 7 minute window to get jumbled.

I prefer we revel in the fact this server has been an epic dual, look at the BP ranking, the players from this server could easily band together and utterly dominate another server. Lets revel in the battles, stresses, strains and friendships.
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
I agree, it would be better if there were no lag problems ... but I think you'll find that if they fixed the lag problems, then your DoS technique would no longer work (I worked as a technical software consultant on one of the largest websites in the UK so I have some relevant experience).
 

Djrlol

Phrourach
Client side yes, but for example if Im on pc you can send 200 attacks and i have no issue as the machine can handle it, on laptop or phone its horrible
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
The lag problem is a system-wide issue, client and server side. A fix would have to deal with both sides to be considered a proper fix. I believe Willow was on a PC in any case, so if she was getting lag it is a problem that really should not happen.

Leo you won the four wonders what is rare is that alliance not taking all seven as well. ~ Djrlol
Incidentally, I dont think this is true ... I've just checked through the first 20 worlds, and:
- 30% have the same name for both the 4 WW prize, and the 7 WW prize.
- 45% never awarded the 7 WW prize
- 25% had different names for the 2 prizes

Thats a measure of how well Triad did to get the 7 WW prize (so congratulations for that), but also how well MORC did to prevent them getting the 4 WW prize !

It was probably the high intensity of the conflict in Athens that led to the high numbers of MORC winning members who were happy to call it a day after they won, which allowed Triad in to get the 7 Wonder prize. MORC at full strength was a formidable force, I was always impressed by the high activity and participation levels leading up to the Victory. After the Victory, it dropped off quite substantially, which made life a lot easier for Triad (still ... it took you 9 months to overhaul us even with a much reduced MORC team. We still gave you a challenge !)
 
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ronnie4183

Phrourach
The lag problem is a system-wide issue, client and server side. A fix would have to deal with both sides to be considered a proper fix. I believe Willow was on a PC in any case, so if she was getting lag it is a problem that really should not happen.



Incidentally, I dont think this is true ... I've just checked through the first 20 worlds, and:
- 30% have the same name for both the 4 WW prize, and the 7 WW prize.
- 45% never awarded the 7 WW prize
- 25% had different names for the 2 prizes

Thats a measure of how well Triad did to get the 7 WW prize (so congratulations for that), but also how well MORC did to prevent them getting the 4 WW prize !

It was probably the high intensity of the conflict in Athens that led to the high numbers of MORC winning members who were happy to call it a day after they won, which allowed Triad in to get the 7 Wonder prize. MORC at full strength was a formidable force, I was always impressed by the high activity and participation levels leading up to the Victory. After the Victory, it dropped off quite substantially, which made life a lot easier for Triad (still ... it took you 9 months to overhaul us even with a much reduced MORC team. We still gave you a challenge !)
All i c are tears from your failed adventure
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
LoL, no failed adventure here, I have all the Winners Documentation ... !
How about you ?
Got any of these ?
 

ronnie4183

Phrourach
LoL, no failed adventure here, I have all the Winners Documentation ... !
How about you ?
Got any of these ?
:-D

Nope...but ask me in 2 days if i got a crown on my profile..I will ask you the same

leo..c'mon..We all know it, it hurts...It's ok to cry..Just let it out.

You can allways finish second again on Pella :D
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
Wow, if we get 2nd in Pella that would exceed Triad's 2nd in Athens !!!
We're a distant third in Pella ... we started several months late there (just after we won Athens in fact !).
Having said that ronnie, I started 6 weeks after you there, but seem to have acquired 34% more cities than you already, so theres always hope !
;)
 
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ronnie4183

Phrourach
Wow, if we get 2nd in Pella that would exceed Triad's 2nd in Athens !!!
We're a distant third in Pella ... we started several months late there (just after we won Athens in fact !).
Having said that ronnie, I started 6 weeks after you there, but seem to have acquired 34% more cities than you already, so theres always hope !
;)

Yeah, i'v ebeen busy with rl lately. Haven't you seen my activity drop last 6-8months. new born, new house, new job..made it hard playing grepolis like a beast. Esp on 2 worlds. So when this world is over. I'll be coming to pella fulltime. And i still got 10 slots to fill on pella btw


We where also a 3rd party on athens once..remember...


And Digi..you know that is just an outright blatant lie LOL

:pro:
 

Leonidas Agiad

Guest
Apparently, any number of alliances can win the Crowns in Athens !?
So if Triad win them, and see a drop off in players like MORC did, then any MORC die-hards can carry on fighting.
If they eventually break Triad's 7 Wonders and rebuild their own, then MORC will also get the Crowns !

So ... which is more valuable !? The Winners award that goes to one alliance, and only one alliance.
Or the 7 Wonders award, which can go to any number of alliances !
In World Epsilon ... SEVEN alliances won the crowns !

Thats the final nail in the coffin for the idea that the Crowns are a uniquely special award.
:D
 
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jonorocks1

Guest
:-D

Nope...but ask me in 2 days if i got a crown on my profile..I will ask you the same

leo..c'mon..We all know it, it hurts...It's ok to cry..Just let it out.

You can allways finish second again on Pella :D
Omg noobs and their crowns :rolleyes: Signs of a simmer.