Update to version 2.39 Discussion Thread

DeletedUser

Guest
Harbour checks

and one more thing, you can't see ships anymore in the harbor when you do a harbor check.

Surely this is a bug if it wasn't listed in the changes? Every bug fix seems to create numerous new bugs. If it isn't a bug then this ruins the game as much as the ridiculous server jump when attacking/defending.
 

DeletedUser22708

Guest
Surely this is a bug if it wasn't listed in the changes? Every bug fix seems to create numerous new bugs. If it isn't a bug then this ruins the game as much as the ridiculous server jump when attacking/defending.

it's not a bug, it's a 'fix', i filed in a support ticket and the admin said it was implemented in the update.
I still find it weird that nowhere is written that they would remove the possibility of doing harbor checks, maybe done on purpose?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
What a joke removing the harbor checks... I guess Innogames got so greedy that they care about money rather than actual game. I encourage every player not to dump any money into this toilet anymore.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
as the number one attacker and defender in achillles - i rose to that position by strategy not blinded attacks - it is absolutely necessary for me to be able to harbor check or spy

spying is slower and requires that is much more random - please bring back harbor checks - yes they work against me as a hundred plus city player but they also allow me to use strategy as opposed to just brute force to conquest cities.

this not only increases simming but blinds the attacker to just brutally pounding a city into submission if they expect to succeed.

is there another strategy that one could recommend - I just don't understand how to use the walls to determine how many units are left after a particular attack

No.1 attacker and defender in achilles? you're only there as the rest of us left. i trashed you in all departments and so did about 70% of the server.

now back on topic. as for the harbour checks thats got to be up there with some of the worst updates we have had. probably alongside the inventory, speeding up troop builds and building reduction costs.

pretty safe to say they are going too far with these updates and more and more of us have had enough.

thank you inno for hastening mine and others decision to call it a day
 

DeletedUser17043

Guest
What a joke removing the harbor checks... I guess Innogames got so greedy that they care about money rather than actual game. I encourage every player not to dump any money into this toilet anymore.
Sorry but how exactly did you come to the conclusion that this was an act of greed? Has it become some sort of premium feature?
I do very much agree that taking out harbour check was a bad idea,but I'd consider it an error of judgement much more than an act of greed, is it not?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Surely this is a bug if it wasn't listed in the changes? Every bug fix seems to create numerous new bugs. If it isn't a bug then this ruins the game as much as the ridiculous server jump when attacking/defending.
No, the crew confirmed it was included in this update.
They probably didn't put it into the list change to avoid objections before the update is done :Angry:

The spy system is a pure non-sense, and this harbor check feature was a good way to sort this problem.
And you can be sure that if ancient Greeks had flying myth units, they would use them to know about enemy forces instead of attacking !
Land troops can be hidden in buildings, not boats.

If harbor check is removed, it must first be replaced by something else.
And this "something else" must be a total free feature.
The "free use/basic premium/gold burner" balance was fine in Grepolis 1.0, but things really became wrong with 2.0.
Ability to reduce the recruiting and academy research times, Phoenician trader calling, Olympic games 5 times faster, building cost cuts ... it has gone really too far.
Developers must stop to add features for gold burners, or Grepolis will loose most of the basic premium users (the real core of a browser game). And these new features will finally cause Innogames to loose money instead of gaining it!

About the island quests problem, I only received one for now, but I talked with some other players and it doesn't seems to be a bug.
It seems the point table in the Wiki is not correct (http://wiki.en.grepolis.com/wiki/Island_Quests#What_are_Island_Quests.3F).
Could someone from moderation/development crew check the wiki ?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I am trying to get a grasp on what the real reason behind this change is.

I've read a majority of players that post are angry with the HC removal. I, for one, can't say I'm fond of it. However, let's try to give it a logical look.

Let's take a look at what we have. We have a game where the following things apply in order to do well:
1) Massive amount of time per day must be allocated to being able to be logged in, or have access to log in. The advent of the mobile alert system helped in not being required to be logged in 18 hours a day, but still one must have immediate access to do so to do well 10 to 18 hours a day.

2) One must time things precisely. The game is designed so that timing things down to the second is pretty important. The development of the attack planner helped in this regard, although it's not perfect. That said, every single update seems to cause problems that make timing to the second in a real time war situation more and more complicated. The removal of HC's is not an exception. Want to use the wall to determine losses? Better not be sending out multiple attacks at any given time. Now you have to attack... sit around and wait.... get the report... study the wall... do the math... determine the results... decide if it's worthy to attack further... send another attack if not... rinse and repeat till you find a target... oh darn - did real life get in the way... I guess maybe later we can start our 1 attack and sit and wait routine again later. Yeah... it just makes the ability to attack become an incredibly tedious and time consuming effort that simply promotes simming.

3) One must buy gold to get the special features. Surely one can do ok without gold, but to go toe to toe with a player of equal caliber and online time, gold is pretty vital.

That all said; what do the designers say about the removal of harbor checks? They say that although they want to promote transparency in the game, and get player feedback, and that feedback is important - they will do what they please without any notice just because they want to and claim logic is the only motivating factor.

This isnt the US political system. Force feeding us lies, misinformation, and deception isn't mandatory. Please stop doing so Innogames.

If logic is your key reason why this removal was done, why is it so mandatory it happened without notice?

Let's look at other logical issues:
1) How do we get battle reports when they happen, as opposed to waiting for when the troops return?
2) How can I stack troops in a city 10 hours away by fast transport, but feed those units with food from the city the troops came from even though the food doesn't get transported to the troops 10 boatride hours away?
3) How can there be so much unused land on an island, but my city reaches maximum size based on a maximum number Innogames picks? Regardless of whether the island has 1 city only, or 15 cities on it?
4) How can swords be made from silver, rock, and wood? What about iron, brass, and copper?
5) How can surviving units not know what they see?
6) How can the use of spies not impact the population? Where do spies come from if not from my population?
7) How can every city on every island in the world look identical?
8) How can spending gold reduce the time and resources it takes to produce a building, but that reduction doesn't have any negative impact on the functionality of the building? (no wonder OSHA was created)
9) How can weapons be used over and over but no repairs are ever required. Or at least no resources are ever needed to make those magically happening repairs occur?
10) Where do all the horses come from that just appear because I want to recruit a horseman or chariot army? Where do I stable them if I have no stables?
11) Why can't I disband units I no longer want?
12) Why can't I attack and kill units of my own in my own city, but if I send my own units to a city I don't own, my own units will happily murder them without thought if I then attack them?
13) Why do I get no BP for units killed when subduing a farming village, but I get BP for killing my own units that my own units just happily murdered because I moved them next door before attacking?

I could go on with a rather extensive list of things that I find illogical, but 13 seems a happy number to stop at.

So... all in all I find that the "logic" defense is rather pathetic.
It is my belief that Innogames intentionally mislead us and outright lied about the entire Harbor Check removal.
And it is my belief that the reasoning for the Harbor Check removal is something more than just "it's illogical so it was vitally important to remove a basic strategic element midgame without notice to ensure we have transparency in the game and a solid connection with the players based on what we are doing".

So please explain some sort of real reason for the removal.
Explain what the next step in regards to it's removal is (what are you trying to accomplish, because if "it's not logical" is your best answer, and the only one you stick with, then you have just dropped in credibility to levels lower than even the worst pathological liar in history)
Explain why every patch and upgrade prevents players from playing the game in a timely manner and with any sort of ease and funtionality, and why this lack of playability appears to be your goal.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Richard

Strategos
Hey guys,

Just to clarify, the change was not included in the announcement, not because we were trying to hide it, but because it genuinely was added last minute, as the work on it was completed.

I agreed whole heartedly that a change like this requires a lot more consideration that it was afforded, and I fed it back to Innogames and the Devs myself. The changes made to the Harbour Check will be reverted later today.

Thanks for your feedback.

Richard and the team
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Logically, IF none of the harbour checking force survives, it doesn't make sense to get a harbour report ! (theres nobody to bring it back afterall !). But if there is a survivor, then why can't they report back !?

For gameplay purposes there are many times when a city is so stacked it would be impossible to get the 'partial espionage' provided by a harbour spy attack if it was required to have a survivor. It becomes near impossible to attack such a city as you have little idea of whats there (though there are other more long-winded ways of deducing this).

Why not introduce a new-spell that reproduces this partial espionage effect: eg. why not allow something like 'Wisdom' to be cast on a city which tells you how many troops, and how many ships are there, but not what types of troops or ships ?
Leonidas_Head2.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser36146

Guest
There are several workarounds that could be implimented to have the same effect as a HC.

For example make it so only Divine Envoy can Harbour spy and send reports back
(there's no need for logic - its a mythical unit anyway)
This would bring more value to the unit as its pretty meaningless now

Plus it allows for more strategy because you then have to factor in how many you need (78 etc) and where you need them
so no sending 78 slingers every 10 mins to see whats going on

Last comment - A quick thanks to Richard et al for getting onto this quickly
 

DeletedUser24139

Guest
Perhaps one solution would be to give us a new Naval unit; a Spy Ship (think of it as two highly skilled guys in a canoe). Something with resource and population costs similar to a CS (30000/170), but much, much faster - that would be sent as a single ship attack. It would do nothing but report back the naval units in a city. It could be sent from a city on one island to spy on a city on a different island or the same island. It would only be detected if the target city has an Oracle or a Lighthouse (maybe even make it so Lighthouse causes failure and destruction of the Spy Ship). Something like this could help in your stated aim of rebalancing the special buildings built by players (sincie it gives new functionality to Oracle and Lighthouse) and could also lead to a new type of specialized city for players to build and implement in their strategies.

no HC = Bad for Grep

The above idea is very feasible however.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser23986

Guest
Due to the very negative feedback from all communities, we will reimplement the harbor checks, most likely today! :)

We are sorry for any inconvenience caused. We haven't been aware of the major importance of this "exploit" / "bug".
Thanks!

I believe this will be the end of story! Btw,richard was this the reason for delay?
 

DeletedUser5554

Guest
Let's look at other logical issues:
1) How do we get battle reports when they happen, as opposed to waiting for when the troops return?
2) How can I stack troops in a city 10 hours away by fast transport, but feed those units with food from the city the troops came from even though the food doesn't get transported to the troops 10 boatride hours away?
3) How can there be so much unused land on an island, but my city reaches maximum size based on a maximum number Innogames picks? Regardless of whether the island has 1 city only, or 15 cities on it?
4) How can swords be made from silver, rock, and wood? What about iron, brass, and copper?
5) How can surviving units not know what they see?
6) How can the use of spies not impact the population? Where do spies come from if not from my population?
7) How can every city on every island in the world look identical?
8) How can spending gold reduce the time and resources it takes to produce a building, but that reduction doesn't have any negative impact on the functionality of the building? (no wonder OSHA was created)
9) How can weapons be used over and over but no repairs are ever required. Or at least no resources are ever needed to make those magically happening repairs occur?
10) Where do all the horses come from that just appear because I want to recruit a horseman or chariot army? Where do I stable them if I have no stables?
11) Why can't I disband units I no longer want?
12) Why can't I attack and kill units of my own in my own city, but if I send my own units to a city I don't own, my own units will happily murder them without thought if I then attack them?
13) Why do I get no BP for units killed when subduing a farming village, but I get BP for killing my own units that my own units just happily murdered because I moved them next door before attacking?

Guess what the next update patch will be about? :p
 

DeletedUser23197

Guest
I normally don't post in the forums but I consider this issue worth spending some time to address. Removing the harbor checks removes the biggest reason for building harpies. Also it significantly lower the fun level of the game. There is very little that you can know as an attacker and removing this vital feature just lowers the ability to plan attacks. It is an especially useful tool when attacking ghosts since they cannot be spelled or spied.
I am saddened that this feature has been removed and urge the developers to reinstate it.
 

DeletedUser19042

Guest
I normally don't post in the forums but I consider this issue worth spending some time to address. Removing the harbor checks removes the biggest reason for building harpies. Also it significantly lower the fun level of the game. There is very little that you can know as an attacker and removing this vital feature just lowers the ability to plan attacks. It is an especially useful tool when attacking ghosts since they cannot be spelled or spied.
I am saddened that this feature has been removed and urge the developers to reinstate it.

It was already said that they are going to reimplement it. :p
 

DeletedUser

Guest
GOOD JOB INNO-GAMES

again...they are doing their job - they thought this through..thought it was a good idea.and found it wasnt...

i wish the political system worked this way - one day mistake corrected - now..can we go back to having fun

frankly... our team already found a work around - we increased our caves and started spying and found it was much better and more efficient than harbor checks - hops were no longer needed - chariots are the better unit now and silver stored in caves until a MASSIVE spy can be sent out...this has resuted in better info and better attacks
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I like the Island Quests, basically it gives something fun to do in-between, and the stories in the quests favor fantasy around ancient Greece, nice.

About the 7 day rewards: should be good too, it shows newbies how important it is to be active every day if they wanna reach something; also, for vets joining a new world, who come from having 100+ cities to striving to get their first academy, time will feel a bit less long.

Removing harbor check like this was wrong. It was a trick belonging to good play and avoided it being just about who has the biggest mass. Mass play is more realistic but also more boring... Good thing to put it back, you should keep some tricks besides mass play, they're the "salt" of a game.
About spying: useful at the start, but from my experience, after a few monthes it's more of an intimidation weapon. If you value spying first, it won't be worth taking a city with a ruined cave, ruining one of your own too. Players would rather sim around and flatten the city with the mass after.
 
Top