Death Penalty

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DeletedUser

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Judging by the ridiculous nature of a government which convicts people with no murder, i'd assume there probably is corruption involved. The 'aciddent' may have been indeed a thing seen in Tv shows but the underlying point that false confessions and all that can be faked due to the corruption is perfectly valid.

Again, a hypothetical has to be a situation which is possible. So i cant answer your question.

Corinthian, i'd rather argue with the dumbest man in the world who is polite than you. I do not throw around insults calling your threads 'stupid'. However good your posts may be your insults completely ruin them
 

DeletedUser

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Judging by the ridiculous nature of a government which convicts people with no murder, i'd assume there probably is corruption involved. The 'aciddent' may have been indeed a thing seen in Tv shows but the underlying point that false confessions and all that can be faked due to the corruption is perfectly valid.

Again, a hypothetical has to be a situation which is possible. So i cant answer your question.

Corinthian, i'd rather argue with the dumbest man in the world who is polite than you. I do not throw around insults calling your threads 'stupid'. However good your posts may be your insults completely ruin them

I haven't called the thread stupid, Danny9990. The thread is excellent, with some very sensible and well thought out posts.. unfortunately, yours aren't some of them.

Look back at your own posts, Danny9990, and see if you can find a single one where you don't entirely contradict yourself. Please, I would love to see if you can.
 

DeletedUser

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Fine i meant my posts. Now if you'll excuse me, instead of stressing myself out i will stop talking to you. You are rude, and if there is one quality in life that means more than the rest, it is to be good-natured.
 

DeletedUser

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This isnt an attack the person thread. This is a debate on the death penalty. too many people have turned this to an attack on Dan than debate the topic itself. Also no need to insult people. Insult the ideas. this thread has gone off topic so be careful that Tyrion doesnt lock it or close it due to this.
 

DeletedUser4013

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Danny9990, what others are trying to say is that many of your posts on this subject have been contradicting in nature. In one post you will state that it is wrong to kill another person, and in a subsequent post you state that if someone kills another person they too should die for their crime.

Either you are not clearly expressing what it is you want to in this thread, or you do not yet grasp all of the fundamental issues that are involved with capital punishment. This topic ranges from issues about the nature of the criminal justice system, to human rights. Without an understanding of many of the items that fall under these categories it would be hard to fully debate this topic.

To everyone: Please refrain from using words and phrases which can be insulting. This is a great thread so far and I'm pleased that people are able to discuss and debate this topic so far. I would hate to have to close it for the reason that people cannot be civil.
 

DeletedUser

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Sorry to join my own thread so late :cool:. Probably shouldn't include too many emotes in this thread though ;), we are talking about the death penalty :eek:.

Any deterrence effect that capital punishment has in a country where it takes place is complete bogus,

"If executions protected innocent lives through deterrence, that would weigh in the balance against capital punishment's heavy social costs. But despite years of trying, this benefit has not been shown to exist; the only proven effects of capital punishment are its liabilities."


And as others have said, the idea of sending an innocent person to an inevitable death is repulsive, and not a distant possibility (at least in the US). Simply put, our justice system isn't entirely trustworthy, just a story I read the other day. I always think of Sylvia Plath's Bell Jar and her disgust at the Rosenberg's execution when I think of capital punishment in the US- even in that case, Ethel Rosenberg's guilt is cast into doubt.

Just looking at the list of countries that currently make use of capital punishment could be an argument against its use, the US can count itself among such notable countries as China, North Korea, Iran, Somalia, and so on in its continuation of the practice.
 

DeletedUser

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Yay for execution-style justice!

Somalia executes people for being homosexuals, Iran executes women for being victims of rape, North Korea executes people for trying to leave their country, and China executes people for cheating on their taxes.

So what does the United States have? Executions for "maybe" being guilty.

An argument repeatedly presented is that we should save money by preventing appeals for Death Row inmates, or that we should restrict how many appeals they can file. But, the mere fact appeals are filed indicates there's contention as to the guilt or innocence of those on Death Row, and such poses a dark cloud over the entire practice of executions.

So, some questions. Danny, if you were convicted of killing someone and sentenced to death, but you didn't do it, you were innocent of the crime, would you:

1. want to appeal?
2. refile for an appeal if your appeal was denied or you lost your appeal?
3. prefer to die instead of file appeals that may result in your being released?
4. accept the court's decision and willingly be put to death, knowing everyone will think you were a criminal?
5. accept the fact that all your belongings would not be given to your relatives and instead would be (posthumously) put up for government auction and the proceeds provided to pay for your incarceration and the procedure required to put you to death?

Being innocent doesn't equal being "found" innocent in a court of law. There is no guarantee, and thus one of the many reasons people prefer to take a plea bargain instead of risk full charges that would be imposed if they were to lose their case and be found guilty of crimes they were charged with (and while I can give a rather stinky argument against plea bargains, thats for a different debate).

The death sentence is the easy way out and is far better than life imprisonement( and those are Tyrion's words)
If the accused is never proven innocent which may happen a lot then life imprisonement is worse for them
As it has already been stated, by Tyrion himself, you misquoted him. After reviewing your misquote, and Tyrion's actual words, it is obvious where the problem resides.

Tyrion used the word, "criminal," which indicates he was referring to the guilty. After all, an innocent person is not a criminal, he is merely falsely imprisoned. That is the core misconception you presented in your misquote, and subsequently in your associated argument.

So, for a "criminal," the death sentence is the easy way out. Instead of serving a deserved life sentence, which is no picnic in the park, a death sentence ends the punishment, releases him from penalties and possibly government-enforced restitution through labor.

However, for an "innocent," the death sentence robs the person of clearing his good name, and prevents him the chance to be found innocent through appeals. A life sentence imposed upon an innocent person is essentially unwarranted punishment. Thus, those persons later found to be innocent (at least in the U.S.) are provided a modicum of financial restitution (in addition to retraining and temporary medical coverage) when they are released. If, through a multitude of appeals, they are never found guilty, it still doesn't warrant the death penalty, precisely because that sort of rationalization would be prognosticative. Given a choice, an innocent person would invariably choose to live out his life in prison in the hopes he would eventually be proven innocent and, thus, subsequently released.

It is then unreasonable to deny the innocent a chance at being found innocent. Since the justice system is NOT infallible, it is logical to fall on the side of caution and impose life sentence over a death penalty. In fact, it is fundamentally humanistic.
 
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DeletedUser

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Danny9990, what others are trying to say is that many of your posts on this subject have been contradicting in nature. In one post you will state that it is wrong to kill another person, and in a subsequent post you state that if someone kills another person they too should die for their crime.

If you put my words back in context you will see that in the first post i referred to it being wrong 'to murder' whereas in the second point the killing is not 'murder' but a punishment for their crimes.

it is not contradicting to be against murder, (which most of us are i hope) and for the death sentecee becuase they are completey different types of murder.

i would also like to remind everyone here that of all the active players posting in this discussion i am the only person for the death sentence. And without controversy we wouldnt have a debate. Also please keep in mind that there are three adults, including one trained lawyer arguining against one kid.

Proof for my point that the debate is dead without my controversy, when i dont post, no-one posts.

if there are any other points you think i have contradicted myself in please quote them and i will explain them. I may not have expressed myself perfectly but given a chance to explain them i think you can begin to see that they are not contradictions
 
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DeletedUser

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If you put my words back in context you will see that in the first post i referred to it being wrong 'to murder' whereas in the second point the killing is not 'murder' but a punishment for their crimes.

And if you look through the rest of your posts after that, you repeatedly contradict yourself, without even (apparently) realising it.

it is not contradicting to be against murder, (which most of us are i hope) and for the death sentecee becuase they are completey different types of murder.

It is when you say that executing innocent people via the death sentence is okay. That's no different to murdering them.

i would also like to remind everyone here that of all the active players posting in this discussion i am the only person for the death sentence. And without controversy we wouldnt have a debate. Also please keep in mind that there are three adults, including one trained lawyer arguining against one kid.

Proof for my point that the debate is dead without my controversy, when i dont post, no-one posts.

And when you do post, you make no decent argument in favour of the death penalty, instead making yourself look like a fool.

It's understandable to want to make your case, Danny9990, but do so properly. Put thought into your posts, and back up your arguments with some sort of evidence, rather than simply making outlandish claims.

Don't embarrass yourself by making posts which start with things:
I dont need to think carefully.
 

DeletedUser

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And if you look through the rest of your posts after that, you repeatedly contradict yourself, without even (apparently) realising it.

Again, please give me an example

It is when you say that executing innocent people via the death sentence is okay. That's no different to murdering them.

No, i tried to balance which is better: killing a few innocent people via the death sentence, or having a few innocent people locked up all their lives and a few victims murdered because ther murderer was not deterred by the death sentence
 

DeletedUser

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Again, please give me an example

I've told you repeatedly to look at EVERY SINGLE POST that you have made. I have yet to see a post of yours in this thread, containing valid information, that doesn't contradict another, in some way. I have no interest in trawling through your posts, and forcing myself to read your horrific typing, just to continue this argument.

Edit:
In fact, having just had a brief look back through your posts, I can't seem to see anywhere that you've actually referred to any facts or statistics to back up your cases.. it's all just opinions.


No, i tried to balance which is better: killing a few innocent people via the death sentence, or having a few innocent people locked up all their lives and a few victims murdered because ther murderer was not deterred by the death sentence

Yet that isn't the case, and you clearly haven't thought it through. To imprison an innocent person gives them the opportunity to appeal, to prove their freedom, and to get their life back. You cannot give a dead person their life back, no matter how innocent they are.

I asked you before, but I think you conveniently decided not to answer:

If you were the judge, and you sentenced someone to death who was later proven to be 100% innocent.. how would you justify their execution, to their family?
 
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DeletedUser

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If you were the judge, and you sentenced someone to death who was later proven to be 100% innocent.. how would you justify their execution, to their family?
Personally, I would justify it by sending them a box of Girl Scout mint cookies.
 

DeletedUser

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Well, I guess the amount would depend on how innocent they were. I don't think it would be unreasonable to take one or two cookies out for myself...
 

DeletedUser

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A single box though, that wouldn't even last an hour for a grieving widow. I think I'd probably have to give at least two, maybe even three.

If you kill enough innocent people to have to send out lots of cookies, the girl scouts might give you a cheaper price, what with buying in bulk. That would help, what with the economy how it is.
 

DeletedUser

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Hmm, well if there's a grieving widow involved, I think I should stick around and console her. Would save me not having to buy an extra box and, who knows...
 

DeletedUser

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Hmm, well if there's a grieving widow involved, I think I should stick around and console her. Would save me not having to buy an extra box and, who knows...

Nah, even if you hand deliver them, you'd still need to buy the cookies. Maybe just go for chocolate chip, not mint, if you're saving money.
 

DeletedUser

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Back on topic:

In theory the death penalty is viable, however, in a real and active society it wouldn't work and would cause more harm that good. Mainly for the reasons outlined that someone can never be 100% guilty and it will definitely cause a lot of public unrest and outcry. Not to mention it is extremely ironic and contradicts its very existence.

However, if the death penalty was allowed, I'd go a three-strikes-and-you're-out kind of system, which would also reduce the "can never be 100% guilty" aspect of it. If you're in and out of jail three times you're obviously doing something wrong and the chances of giving false confessions or being forced for a confession thrice is unlikely (not saying that it is 3 times for minor offenses, of course, etc. Just gotta cover all bases here with some of you guys but I'm sure one of you will pick up a loophole).
 

DeletedUser

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Back on topic:

In theory the death penalty is viable, however, in a real and active society it wouldn't work and would cause more harm that good. Mainly for the reasons outlined that someone can never be 100% guilty and it will definitely cause a lot of public unrest and outcry. Not to mention it is extremely ironic and contradicts its very existence.

However, if the death penalty was allowed, I'd go a three-strikes-and-you're-out kind of system, which would also reduce the "can never be 100% guilty" aspect of it. If you're in and out of jail three times you're obviously doing something wrong and the chances of giving false confessions or being forced for a confession thrice is unlikely (not saying that it is 3 times for minor offenses, of course, etc. Just gotta cover all bases here with some of you guys but I'm sure one of you will pick up a loophole).

With the three-strike system, would each strike have to be a minimum sentence, or for a certain crime? It would be hardly reasonable to sentence a person to death for being in and out of prison for something minor, such as petty theft, vandalism, etc. It would only really work, in my opinion, for more 'extreme' crimes.. but these would be the sort of crimes which are punishable by life imprisonment, meaning that the offender is imprisoned once, for life, rather than having the opportunity to be in-and-out, three times.
 

DeletedUser

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Yes, of course. They would only be applicable to more severe crimes. I thought the disclaimer in brackets illustrated that point but perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

It isn't a perfect system, but if we had to make do with capital punishment I think it'd be something similar or at least stemming from a three strike system.

To get in and out of jail three times each with a life sentence is pretty impressive though :p (someone should check the people handing out those paroles).
 
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