Update to Version 2.233 Discussion Thread

0ZZZ

Phrourach
They should most definately be allowed to play the game they function as judges for. Otherwise, how would they be able to judge anything.

Not Hydnas fault how you decide to view things, i would argue you have a CONFLICT OF INTEREST commenting here as if you care about the games wellbeing. Especially when your actions ingame (spam) are toxic as they can be.

Serious dude your bias is showing but your substantive argument is not. Why dont you go back to that
"in crowd snow flake" echo chamber you call an alliance chat where like you they believe any tactic beyond zerge should be banned.
Your views may sit well with the quite vocal minority snowflakes here but it in no way do they reflect the opinions of the majority of players that have never even logged in here. Im not actually accusing her of bringing about this change. How could I possibly know for sure?

I am accusing her of playing in the same community she functions as a judge in which shows a lack of ethics in it self. Beyond that she could be mother Teresa herself and she would still APPEAR guilty. That is why most reputable gaming companies would never allow this.


Adjudication violating industry standard gives the appearance of corruption.

Moderators and community managers Function as prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner.
Hell they execute punishment before giving you an opportunity to even provide a defense.

They literally execute rules with ZERO transparency.
"Sorry we can't tell you the rules because then you might be able to know before hand what they are and avoid breaking them."
"Sorry we cant tell you what the punishment for breaking the rules are because you might know what the appropriate punishment is."


All of those choices above invite the suspicion of corruption.
There are no reasonable checks and balances.
There is no transparency.
You could be a perfect saint and those choices will still call into question your integrity.
That is why first world governments do not function this way and neither do most respectable games.

Now add the fact the person in this GOD role was playing with or against you last server and will likely be playing with or against you next server that is over the top, and grossly violates industry standards in game moderation.
I have friends and relatives that work in this industry and they wont even try the game based on this blatant disrespect for proper player adjudication.

----
Immutable advantages.
Immutable advantages.
Community managers/moderators have game knowledge that is intentionally denied players. they make choices with this knowledge.
Other players will assume they will share this knowledge directly with their team.
Even if not directly they will share some of this knowledge simply by their observable actions.
In recruitment the perceived advantage of having a moderator in an alliance is a draw for recruitment.
In diplomacy other alliances are more likely to behave favorable in order to gain the mods good side or avoid their bad.
All of these factors effect a competitive games outcome.

All of these advantages would be present if the mod was as pure as the driven snow. No actual malicious intent required.
Now if they actively chose to use this power in the manner expected, the advantage rates off the scale.

Are you going to try to shovel us the manure that there is no potential that some one is not going to treat a known moderator differently when they expect that person will be their judge in the next server they play?
Did you fail both Ethics, and psychology 101 o_O?
Do you even proof read what you write for content of logic before you hit send?
Do you realize the fact you raced to defend a community manager you have influence with betrays the value you have placed on this unfair edge you seek to preserve.
You are literally proving several of my assertions for me.
----
The current choice to allow JUDGES to play the same server sets they function as judges are literally the text book example of conflict of interest.
People literally get fired from their jobs in the gaming industry for just divulging they are an employee for the game company they are playing in let alone being a judge. Even making the claim "my dad works for SONY so...." will get you banned and if true your father disciplined.

Seeing as you appear to lack a basic grasp of logic I will boil the argument down to some thing my 4 year old brother could comprehend.

Perhaps you would enjoy me moderating your entire teams ticket load next server?
You think that might effect your gaming experience much?


I do not think you understand the definition of conflict of interest?

1) not an employee.
2) Not on either team involved.
3) Made the same argument several years ago before Olympus was even a concept.

I have one interest a fare judging system from the perspective of a paying customer.
I would require at least one more interest in order for their to be a conflict.

That is unless you are going to claim that my knowledge of this person as a player might influence my ability to judge them.
If that is so you can stop reading here as you just made my argument for me.

SPAM! explain how you can accuse some one of an action that has yet to have an agreed upon definition?
I hear there is one written down some where but it is super secret. Did your mod friend share that secret with you?



Toxic behavior?
You mean like game killing behavior?
You mean like bullying players a tenth your size instead of fighting an appropriate sized opponent that would be a challenge?
How bout insisting any tactic that gives them a counter to your size advantage be cause for being banned from the game?
How about focusing on one enemy player at a time purposefully trying to get them to quit or ghost so you can weaken the other team?
Here is a good one for you.
How about waging MODfare against an opponent you cant beat in battle. How dare they challenge your hegemony with superior skill?
How about treating all of your alliance that are not in the "in crowd" like surfs?
How about "recruiting" 80% of your team from the top 100 players creating a "super group" before the server is even half way through?
Because no one will declare it a dead server and quit? Because no one in that "super group" will quit because there is no challenge left?

Dont tell me you have never done any of the above i have watched you and your "in crowd" burn this game down with said "toxic" behavior.


Its not rocket science people. If a moderator plays on the en server they mod the US server.
If they play the US server then they mod the EN server. They function as judges for people they do not know.
Most Europeans speak multiple languages should be no shortage there.

This is no difference in scope than not allowing your uncle to function as your judge in a murder trial.
I can't believe I'm even having to explain this. It is basic wrong and right.
 
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OutOfCharacters

Phrourach
@Baudin Toolan @Hydna

What has changed from the time of Zancle that our feedback is no longer able to be heard and responded to? Why have the inno gods decided that major game mechanic changes are now okay in the middle of worlds, when they believed it was a bad idea a few years ago?

This is probably my biggest disappointment in the evolution of grep. Maybe if we knew what has changed, or the channels actually taken to try to get our feedback of the last 24 hours heard, it would be easier to not say "the CM just doesn't want to push this because it benefits them". The player frustration is that we are only given words from our CMs to deliver the messages from on high... GODs... and we have no idea what conversations actually happen, what they push or don't push, what they know and don't know. We don't understand why there's a feedback thread if feedback no longer matters.

0ZZZ makes some good points. Everyone who likes or dislikes him should take a step back and read it as if you've never met either him OR Hydna, as if you just joined this community and are trying to decide if it operates on principles you think is worth investing in. When I do that I'm left wanting for more. If we sit out here and fight over defending our friends on either side, we're missing the issue.

Translate that into a situation like today-- it's very easy to think, Silver's team didn't set up like this because she knew they were working on a 'fix' to take it away. She didn't tell anyone because she can't, but she played knowing the rules would be changing, whereas the rest of the server did not. That's not a bash on Silver, she is simply a human being. But that type of knowledge will impact her game play, and as a result of leading the #1 alliance, impact the server gameplay. By being in this role, this conflict, and resulting judgment from the people who know nothing, will happen. If she were playing in a noob rim alliance just to get a feel for the mechanics, maybe it would be different. But leading the #1 alliance on a server... it's going to catch some sideways looks. That's no reflection on her as a person, but it is the perception created.
 

DeletedUser52274

Guest
As an outsider who is in this world just dipping my toes to get a feel for the game again, all the flack here is being directed in the wrong direction. The Mods don't change the game mechanics it's the developers they are the ones you should be crying at.

If a moderator plays on the en server they mod the US server.
If they play the US server then they mod the EN server. They function as judges for people they do not know.

Great idea I know someone who did this for a few years, until recently and stood down due to ill health. They were a SIGM and the Forum Administrator over there. From the day they started they were constantly vilified and reported for being corrupt. When in truth you couldn't find a more honest person.

In my opinion before you go lambasting Mods and bumping your gums about them, maybe you should try being in their shoes. Everyday they are caught between a rock and a hard place. On one side they have Inno telling them no doubt what they can and can't do and no doubt what they can say and can't say and then on the other side they have the players, enough to give anyone a major headache.

It's a thankless job.
 

GanTja

Taxiarch
As an outsider who is in this world just dipping my toes to get a feel for the game again, all the flack here is being directed in the wrong direction. The Mods don't change the game mechanics it's the developers they are the ones you should be crying at.
Please enlighten me, how do i get in touch with the devs directly so i can "cry at them"?
Also they are mods. They know what kind of work they applied for and them being in an unpleasant situation is not an excuse which should make us not express our opinion. Thats like being a soldier but then asking to not be sent to war cuz its dangerous and you can die. They are the "face" of grepo, the ones that collect feedback, answer questions, take complaints and pass info to the devs, of what use would they be to us if we wouldnt express what we think is wrong in the game, just so we dont hurt their feelings ?
 

DeletedUser52274

Guest
Please enlighten me, how do i get in touch with the devs directly so i can "cry at them"?
Also they are mods. They know what kind of work they applied for and them being in an unpleasant situation is not an excuse which should make us not express our opinion. Thats like being a soldier but then asking to not be sent to war cuz its dangerous and you can die. They are the "face" of grepo, the ones that collect feedback, answer questions, take complaints and pass info to the devs, of what use would they be to us if we wouldnt express what we think is wrong in the game, just so we dont hurt their feelings ?

I'm sure you are a clever person who would be able to find out how to contact them if you really wanted to.

A soldier can refuse to go to war it's been done in recent times, just doesn't do your promotion or job prospects any good.

Yes they are Mods but they are also players as well.

But to blame one person or cast aspersions against a person because of a bug fix by the developers is ridiculous.
 

DeletedUser21560

Guest
Please enlighten me, how do i get in touch with the devs directly so i can "cry at them"?
Also they are mods. They know what kind of work they applied for and them being in an unpleasant situation is not an excuse which should make us not express our opinion. Thats like being a soldier but then asking to not be sent to war cuz its dangerous and you can die. They are the "face" of grepo, the ones that collect feedback, answer questions, take complaints and pass info to the devs, of what use would they be to us if we wouldnt express what we think is wrong in the game, just so we dont hurt their feelings ?

If you make a ticket ingame and express your dissatisfaction with INNOs way of implementing things, especially without consulting the CMs first, to perhaps avoid these unnecessary scenarios, the CMs will bump up the ticket to the devs.

I have no doubt if they had consulted Hydna like they should have, she would had told them about this exact scenario. All of this would had been avoided.

If you just make a ticket complaining about how unfair it all is, the ticket most likely won't be bumped up the chain. Ofcourse the feedback that the community is not happy would get to the devs, but not the real reason for all of this.

This is an issue about the process of change, not the change itself. If we are not specific and careful about the feedback we give them it will just be labeled as bickering and serve us no good, as they already made the decision to do this.
 

OutOfCharacters

Phrourach
I don't think people are bashing the mods here. Also, there is a distinction between mod and CM that you're glossing over. We've been told the CM's are our bridge to inno. This is the system that was set up, and has worked for years. Where else shall we go? Sure, we can google search and try to complain like Charlie has done, outside the structure. But, should we have to? I write tickets in game and am told, "it's done, there will be no discussion or recompense" in so many words. I've written serious feedback in those tickets on the perception issues that exist, and I have no idea if it's gotten in the right hands, or if anyone cares to read it. The response I get is simply "nothing will be done". So we come here, to the feedback forum, to the CMs. I'd rather have interested players having the discussion here, then have people leaving out of frustration.

There are so many gray areas-- in fact, in the world we are talking about, at least one of our players had a ticket answered by Hydna, even though she's playing here. That's something we're told never happens. Maybe it's a staffing issue. Maybe it's a special case. Maybe it's CM vs mod. But still raises eyebrows. And it's a broken system if a player in a world is answering tickets on that world, regardless of their role.

All that said, the issue here for me isn't mods playing-- though I'd be more inclined to support them playing in markets in which they do not work, or lurking about instead of running an alliance. It's likely coincidence that the CM's alliance in this case benefits from the recent changes, which unfortunately just clouds the issue and points to the conflict of interests.

The issue for me is not knowing what, if anything, the current CMs are doing when changes like this, mid-server, highly impact the outcome of a strategy that's been underway for months, a week before it's over. In the olden days we saw CMs actively making a difference. Today, we the players see nothing, and are told to just be quiet and accept it. Layer in the CM benefiting, and we are of course going to wonder if the lack of action is related in some way.

We had no idea this was something under consideration, as there was nothing in the logs, and prior changes appeared to fix the bugs we all talked about (see @Shuri2060 post above in this chain). So to suggest we should have "asked Hydna earlier" if we could play within the bounds of the game's programming is rather silly. That requires us to anticipate asking about every possible game feature that might be changed mid-server.

I don't like using "stop bashing the mods" as the response to people's critical feedback on the system we are operating under. The humans involved and their integrity are not the point in question. The system is. And the only people who can do anything or respond on our behalf is... you guessed it... the CMs. I'd prefer to focus on an answer to the question I posed to them in this string. What is different between Zancle and today, that prevents reconsideration of such a change?
 

Baudin Toolan

Grepolis Team
The difference between the delay in activating the opening of city spots on world wonder islands on Zancle 4 years ago is that that change was not a bug fix. That was an update based around improving the endgame. The current update is to fix a bug that has caused unintended interactions/loopholes in how the developers wanted temples to function. Our developers also try not to branch out the code for the game which is what would happen if we tried to not address this particular bug when no worlds on any server were in either the large temple or Olympus phase of the game. Updating some worlds but not others with a bug fix would lead to multiple versions of the game being active which usually causes issues when more bugs arise. Given that a player without an alliance cannot conquer a temple on their own it follows that a player who is holding an alliance and leaves it would then cause the siege to end given that the solo player cannot conquer the temple. This is why the bug is being fixed. As for why this wasn't fixed with the previous update that dealt with temple limits that an alliance could hold, sometimes not every interaction that could lead to previous bug is identified and fixed. So while leaving and then rejoining an alliance during temples sieges could cause an alliance to go beyond their temple limit previously and that was fixed, what was missed was simply leaving and maintaining the siege if gaining the temple at the end of the siege did not push you over the limit on temples for your alliance. I do not know why this bug fix wasn't communicated on the beta server but as I mentioned it was likely done in error. We, the support team, do not know when or how long a bug fix will take to be implemented and have no say in when it goes live. Changes to the game are made based on the final opinion of the developers. Player feedback an certainly aid developers in making their decision but this was a bug fix and we have continued to send this feedback along daily to make sure how our community feels about this upcoming update is known.
 

OutOfCharacters

Phrourach
Thank you for the response.

I disagree with the "hands in the air" viewpoint you have on this.

In Zancle some argued it was a bug, some said game feature. Same here. Potato, Po-tah-to.

Here, the rules stated that only an alliance can conquer a temple, but any player was allowed to siege one, just like a normal city. When the other bug was fixed, of course we all assumed it was finished. It's a point of semantics to call it a bug now, when it's been operating as a game feature for months now. The bottom line is, just like Zancle's bug/feature change, this too highly impacts a game that's in its final steps, and to implement it potentially hands one team a victory, thus ruining competition. To hide behind semantics is a poor stance. This is why the community assumes the CM's don't care enough to make the argument... because it seems plain as day that, bug or enhancement, a change this impactful should not be made at this point in a server where many have invested so much time and money.
 

Baudin Toolan

Grepolis Team
As is stated in the rules of Olympus,

  • Players who are not in an alliance cannot conquer a temple.
Given this the current way leaving an alliance while holding a temple works was viewed as a bug by our developers and is thus being fixed. As for our "hands in the air" view point you believe us to have, we have asked for this to be delayed and have been given the same reply I have relayed in this thread. Our developers do not want to branch the code for a bug fix to apply it to only some worlds when those worlds are not in either the large temple or Olympus phase of the game as it would lead to multiple versions of the game running at once which causes issues for bugs going forward.
 

OutOfCharacters

Phrourach
A "bug" that exists long enough to be utilized in end game strategy in a speed 2 world, is not a "bug" any more, it's a feature. And this should require advance notice of its removal, if you want players to continue to invest in your product. There are more examples of things like that through the years in grep, where dev stances have shifted due to player impact mid-world-- but I won't go digging them up. What I hear is, we are no longer concerned with player investment and impact late in a world, and we will change coding based on our whims. Message received.
 

xFate

Strategos
If you make a ticket ingame and express your dissatisfaction with INNOs way of implementing things, especially without consulting the CMs first, to perhaps avoid these unnecessary scenarios, the CMs will bump up the ticket to the devs.

I have no doubt if they had consulted Hydna like they should have, she would had told them about this exact scenario. All of this would had been avoided.

If you just make a ticket complaining about how unfair it all is, the ticket most likely won't be bumped up the chain. Ofcourse the feedback that the community is not happy would get to the devs, but not the real reason for all of this.

This is an issue about the process of change, not the change itself. If we are not specific and careful about the feedback we give them it will just be labeled as bickering and serve us no good, as they already made the decision to do this.

lmaooooo

you think anything is being passed onto the devs?
 

Shuri2060

Strategos
The difference between the delay in activating the opening of city spots on world wonder islands on Zancle 4 years ago is that that change was not a bug fix. That was an update based around improving the endgame. The current update is to fix a bug that has caused unintended interactions/loopholes in how the developers wanted temples to function. Our developers also try not to branch out the code for the game which is what would happen if we tried to not address this particular bug when no worlds on any server were in either the large temple or Olympus phase of the game. Updating some worlds but not others with a bug fix would lead to multiple versions of the game being active which usually causes issues when more bugs arise. Given that a player without an alliance cannot conquer a temple on their own it follows that a player who is holding an alliance and leaves it would then cause the siege to end given that the solo player cannot conquer the temple. This is why the bug is being fixed. As for why this wasn't fixed with the previous update that dealt with temple limits that an alliance could hold, sometimes not every interaction that could lead to previous bug is identified and fixed. So while leaving and then rejoining an alliance during temples sieges could cause an alliance to go beyond their temple limit previously and that was fixed, what was missed was simply leaving and maintaining the siege if gaining the temple at the end of the siege did not push you over the limit on temples for your alliance. I do not know why this bug fix wasn't communicated on the beta server but as I mentioned it was likely done in error. We, the support team, do not know when or how long a bug fix will take to be implemented and have no say in when it goes live. Changes to the game are made based on the final opinion of the developers. Player feedback an certainly aid developers in making their decision but this was a bug fix and we have continued to send this feedback along daily to make sure how our community feels about this upcoming update is known.
I find it incredulous that 1 city WWs aren't being considered a bug, while a player being able to leave during a temple siege is.

This just reinforces my point --- whether it's a bug or not is subjective from the Developers' POV (did they intend this mechanic?). I'm quite sure 1 city WWs were an oversight in the same way.

What matters here is that the update would majorly affect existing strategies in current worlds used by alliances in order to win.

Bug or not, none of these strategies (along with LMD a few months back) were 'new' - all were well known for at least half a year if not more. We are not rushing to patch some absolutely broken mechanic that causes huge balancing issues here. In fact the 1 city WW
is arguably much more 'broken' in terms of balance than the current issue at hand.

While leaving/switching ally during temple sieges is somewhat advantageous to allies that use it, unlike 1WW, it does not provide a massive advantage over those that don't use it. Had the allies in en128 decided to have Olympus be held in their DEF alliance, this update wouldn't be causing as many problems.

The advantage of using 1WW while others don't is huge in comparison. The effects of a midworld 'fix' in either case would be just as devastating for alliances using it, however.

My point is --- a midworld change is never welcome if it forces a large strategical disruption, and more so if it favors some sides more than others. HOWEVER, it COULD be justified if the mechanic in question is hugely game breaking to the point where balance/fairness is lost. But as soon as it's found, the Devs should announce in advance this is notnintended behaviour amd a patch would be released soon to solve it. This type of balance/fixing is easily seen in other games.

If the 1WW fix had happened midworld, personally, I think it could've been justified along those lines, except I also hear the bug was 'old' at that point in time (I'm not sure). If so, then the right thing to do would've been to patch it for future worlds as was done.

With the LMD situation --- that clearly wasn't a bug, but a game balance. A mechanic that's been around and acknowledged for years. Players went into morale CQ worlds expecting this to be present from start to end. I see no way at all such a change could be justified midworld. A bare minimum of prior notice of at least a few months is reasonably expected for huge changes such as this, imo.

And now with the temple ally switching situation --- by no means will this actually cause huge strategical change to new temple worlds. In fact it wouldn't affect anyone at all EXCEPT coalitions split into specialized alliances who had decided to end the Olympus siege in a non-DEF alliance. This applies to the allies on en128, so it is an unfortunate coincidence such an update would have such a large effect in existing worlds. The devs unlikely forsaw this while releasing the patch, and none of us forsaw the patch, either.

So what now? What should happen really is that they delay the update until the world ends, or release it for future worlds. That is what I'm asking, at least. I honestly think the practical issues are something the Devs need to work on --- the way these updates are being released potentially ruin gameplay experiences as we see in such cases.
 
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Shuri2060

Strategos
As is stated in the rules of Olympus,

  • Players who are not in an alliance cannot conquer a temple.
Given this the current way leaving an alliance while holding a temple works was viewed as a bug by our developers and is thus being fixed.
Yes, but that was always impossible. The siege could always continue, but nothing would happen to the temple after siege end.

This is in fact also true if you attempt to conquer a temple from the same alliance, or post-update, attempt to conquer more temples than your alliance could hold.

All bugs related to this issue had been fixed 4 months ago which stopped allies exceeding their temple capacity (only possible through switching). The current game mechanics follows what is stated in the docs.

The only way the previous bug could've occurred was by this method.
 
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Shuri2060

Strategos
@Baudin Toolan Why have they also removed the ability to escort CS with FS in one of the recent updates???

Also a key strat by experienced players. I can't even begin to express how angry I am at how stuff like this is being removed with no notice and no discussion with players.

As I've said in previous threads, the devs don't seem to know their own game. They are unwittingly destroying it with their 'adjustments'.
 
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