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DeletedUser
Guest
I wonder what the in-game moderators would say if you didn't dictate their every move. Not allowing their opinions to be expressed.
I can tell this because I can see the in-game mods have gone quite.
I can tell this because I can see the in-game mods have gone quite.
Milos21
Phrourach
Excellent, now we are using legal terms finally. If it was a fault, and if it was exploited, that means that such "a handful of players" should be banned.
Instead, we are given 5 x 100 gold as a reward instead of 23 x 100 gold. You are breaching rules and conditions by not banning "a handful of players", or am I missing anything?
DeletedUser
Guest
Sorry to hear that man but I must say its good to see someone step up and take action. If your solicitor needs anyone to help him out then I am than more willing to do so. I'm even more sorry to hear that happened to your son. Fight the F.O.O.L.S
DeletedUser
Guest
Dude, i think you are the most awesome CM, and the devs put heaps of effort into the Advent and it was great. But you are digging yourself a hole.
So this isnt a bug, this is an "exploit." So if its not a bug, or a fault whats the problem?? We where within the rules to "take advantage" of this problem. You contradicted yourself
As you say this isnt a bug or a fault, we were totally within the rules to world hop to gain gold.
Richard
Strategos
At no point in our terms does the exploitation of bugs or faults detail a specific punishment. The punishment Innogames deemed appropriate was to remove the gold, not ban the offending users. That is their right, it is their game.
DeletedUser
Guest
Dude i feel sorry for you having to deal with this at like 1 am in the morning..... You should have asked them to do it at a better hour
DeletedUser
Guest
Thanks for the support but I really doubt you will be needed. I've directed my Brother-inlaw to this thread and he's gathered the information posted by the game creator replying to the gamers posts and the other victims. He seemed confident something can be done here and he was going to look into things in more detail on the weekend. Lucky for me I don't have to pay lawyer fee's because many people here can't afford to take action against Grepolis.
DeletedUser
Guest
Nice, good luck mate!!
DeletedUser
Guest
so not an actual fault with the software???? IG are in breach of their own T's & C's a fault in legal terms would be with the end product NOT the set up behind it!
the fault we were, exploiting, was human error not software failure!
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DeletedUser27700
Guest
Milos21
Phrourach
Richard, while I agree with you that punishments are not precisely determined in section 10.2., that section clearly states:
"10.2 It is prohibited to exploit bugs or faults in the games' programming and in the course of the game"
we are both aware that fault in "planning" and not programming itself the advent calendar will never be treated by section 10.2 in a court of low.
I think you given yourself the right to decide whether this what Inno did can be treated by section 10.2. You should advise with Inno legal council before that mate.
Punishing players with removing 1800 gold coins for something which might not be a breach that can be treated by section 10.2. is suspiciously legal and certainly immoral.
You are right that Inno can punish the players under section 10.2. In that case, you must notify players that they are punished for breaching section 10.2 and give them the right to defend their actions. You can not punish someone and dont:
a) inform him about it
b) dont give him the possibility to appeal.
Immoral
DeletedUser
Guest
No way did they just ban you for writing that. What in the hell is going on?!
Richard
Strategos
The exploit is clearly covered by 10.2. The error was in the planning, and by extension, the programming of the event.
To quote the entirety of 10.2, as to entirely understand what it states:
The removal of the gold is legally sound, and has been checked by the relevant people. If it were not, the action would not have been taken. Innogames would not take action like this without first checking the legality of it. The issue pertains to premium content, purchased or otherwise, and no change would have been made without first checking the legality of it. Again, nowhere in 10.2 does it state the user is entitled to be informed, or to appeal the decision to right an exploitation.
Moral? That is a matter of opinion entirely. I have already apologised for the lack of notice, I agree this particular element should have been dealt with in a different manner.
To quote the entirety of 10.2, as to entirely understand what it states:
The long and short of it is this, it clearly states that Innogames are entitled to be remimbursed for any benefits derived from the exploitation of bugs or faults.
The removal of the gold is legally sound, and has been checked by the relevant people. If it were not, the action would not have been taken. Innogames would not take action like this without first checking the legality of it. The issue pertains to premium content, purchased or otherwise, and no change would have been made without first checking the legality of it. Again, nowhere in 10.2 does it state the user is entitled to be informed, or to appeal the decision to right an exploitation.
Moral? That is a matter of opinion entirely. I have already apologised for the lack of notice, I agree this particular element should have been dealt with in a different manner.
DeletedUser
Guest
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163001/Sainsburys-ATM-pays-DOUBLE-mistake.html
this is the last I'm saying on this......we have been demonised for E X P L O I T I N G human error. All this over internet credits which cost nothing to inno but meant us mere mortals had a great christmas spending some of what we "stole", if you look at your statistics you'll probably see more growth and battles over christmas a new year than you did over last year as a whole (and before anyone goes all numbers on me I know I'm exaggerating) that was a lot of happy people really enjoying a freebie. A lot of people will be calling IG a lot of things but I'll just leave it at Party Poopers!
I won't quit over this but I won't enjoy it as much as I have
this is the last I'm saying on this......we have been demonised for E X P L O I T I N G human error. All this over internet credits which cost nothing to inno but meant us mere mortals had a great christmas spending some of what we "stole", if you look at your statistics you'll probably see more growth and battles over christmas a new year than you did over last year as a whole (and before anyone goes all numbers on me I know I'm exaggerating
) that was a lot of happy people really enjoying a freebie. A lot of people will be calling IG a lot of things but I'll just leave it at Party Poopers!I won't quit over this but I won't enjoy it as much as I have
DeletedUser4013
Guest
In support of Richard's comment, Clause 10.2 of the Terms and Conditions refers to '...bugs or faults in the games progamming and in the course of the game [emphasis added].
While the word programming is used, and would generally refer to the coding used in the game, the second area covered refers to anything done in the game itself. This includes the planning of any special events in-game, special promotions, or any other action which could be done within the game in its current incarnation.
The fact that the clause refers specifically to an 'advantage for the User' clearly indicates that whatever has happened: bug or fault caused from programming or in the course of the game which gives the player any advantage which they would not have otherwise had is covered. The gold exploited on 24 December is something that falls under this. Players deliberately joined multiple worlds on that day for the express purpose of gaining 100 gold from the calendar. As gold can be used on any world a player has an account in, and most of the players having no intention of continuing in the new worlds (and thereby taking up places that new players could have taken), this gold was obtained for the obvious advantage it would give a player in their main world since gold is associated with the Master Account and is not world specific.
This following aspect of the clause -
is a two way street. Any benefit through a bug or fault gained by InnoGames is to be reimbursed, and any benefit gained by players through the same is to be reimbursed. The phrase 'as far as possible' means that any action can be taken in respect of this reimbursement either to the player or to InnoGames. The actions taken by InnoGames are in keeping with the Terms and Conditions to which all players have agreed to abide by when joining the game.
As for the legal aspects - You claim that InnoGames has taken something from you which is rightfully yours. This is a fallacy. The gold exploited is not, and was not, yours to have. The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word 'Exploit' as follows:
Based on this definition, the joining up to any open world for the express purpose of gaining 100 gold, falls squarely under the second of these definitions. By claiming rights over it, you are appropriating it with the express intent to deprive InnoGames of the compensation it rightfully deserves for such gold to be given.
Finally, as has been said in this thread a number of times before. If you think that more gold has been taken than was exploited, please submit a ticket and this will be looked into.
DeletedUser
Guest
Irrespective as to whether the "rules" cover such an eventuality as that occurred, most company's "terms of business" will expressly include a right to recover goods, services or money that the customer was not entitled to - such as additional premium credits that would normally have cost "real money" to purchase. So I think Innogames were completely within their rights to recover premium gold that was inadvertently made available by people exploiting an oversight by the developers (I too took advantage of it by joining 10 worlds).
However.........
1. The only reason that I had sufficient credit for Innogames to actually be able to recover this act of "generosity" was by nature of me having purchased premium in the first place. This places me at a disadvantage to players who just grabbed the gold and who have already spent it, which is unfair.
2. On the day it happened, I specifically recall that the oversight was identified by a player very quickly and referred to in a posting in the Forum - and a senior moderator replied to it by a "wink" and referring to Innogame's "Christmas Spirit". This posting has now disappeared. By nature of the acceptance of the apparent oversight by a duly authorised "agent of the Company" (whether paid or not is of no relevance), then I believe that Innogames had duly accepted the position of having given out a "freebie", and now to have rescinded that acceptance.
3. Whilst there is no requirement for there to be an appeals system, and there have been numerous references above to "sending in a support ticket" if anyone thinks that what has been removed from their premium account is not in accord with how much was added to a players account by using multiple start ups in different worlds, it really was beholden on Innogames, if only for PR purposes, to have dealt with the problem quickly - within a day or two of the event - and not wait for some 3 weeks before doing anything about it, AND to have sent round an announcement as to what and why they were clawing back premium, and how they were calculating it, and when it was going to occur. They are quick enough to send round messages encouraging players to join new worlds/different game products, so they are quite capable of having done this. An "apology" also would not have gone amiss, even if the Company felt that they were more sinned against than sinned - a few placatory words never cost anyone anything.
To just reduce the amount of premium in my account without any explanation or advise just does not strike me as being very professional or indeed "acceptable", irrespective as to where the Company is based (& therefore subject to its own countries laws - not being German, I have no idea what EU/German Law might say about this subject). We live in an international world, but basic good manners transcend borders, and I would ask the MD to look to how he would feel if the same thing had happened to him - I feel sure he would not be very impressed with how his Company has dealt with the situation.
Innogames depends on the goodwill of the people playing their games, and the livelihood of their 200 or so employees depends on us, players from all over the world, paying "premium" to play their game(s). This sort of thing will, unfortunately, not do their reputation any good.
However.........
1. The only reason that I had sufficient credit for Innogames to actually be able to recover this act of "generosity" was by nature of me having purchased premium in the first place. This places me at a disadvantage to players who just grabbed the gold and who have already spent it, which is unfair.
2. On the day it happened, I specifically recall that the oversight was identified by a player very quickly and referred to in a posting in the Forum - and a senior moderator replied to it by a "wink" and referring to Innogame's "Christmas Spirit". This posting has now disappeared. By nature of the acceptance of the apparent oversight by a duly authorised "agent of the Company" (whether paid or not is of no relevance), then I believe that Innogames had duly accepted the position of having given out a "freebie", and now to have rescinded that acceptance.
3. Whilst there is no requirement for there to be an appeals system, and there have been numerous references above to "sending in a support ticket" if anyone thinks that what has been removed from their premium account is not in accord with how much was added to a players account by using multiple start ups in different worlds, it really was beholden on Innogames, if only for PR purposes, to have dealt with the problem quickly - within a day or two of the event - and not wait for some 3 weeks before doing anything about it, AND to have sent round an announcement as to what and why they were clawing back premium, and how they were calculating it, and when it was going to occur. They are quick enough to send round messages encouraging players to join new worlds/different game products, so they are quite capable of having done this. An "apology" also would not have gone amiss, even if the Company felt that they were more sinned against than sinned - a few placatory words never cost anyone anything.
To just reduce the amount of premium in my account without any explanation or advise just does not strike me as being very professional or indeed "acceptable", irrespective as to where the Company is based (& therefore subject to its own countries laws - not being German, I have no idea what EU/German Law might say about this subject). We live in an international world, but basic good manners transcend borders, and I would ask the MD to look to how he would feel if the same thing had happened to him - I feel sure he would not be very impressed with how his Company has dealt with the situation.
Innogames depends on the goodwill of the people playing their games, and the livelihood of their 200 or so employees depends on us, players from all over the world, paying "premium" to play their game(s). This sort of thing will, unfortunately, not do their reputation any good.
DeletedUser
Guest
I've already contacted PayPal about this. Its just become a legal matter Inno. PayPal is going to back me on this matter I think, they do like to protect their clients in situations like this. I strongly suggest everyone else do the same, as its obvious that Inno cares not about its customer base or legal matters.
And to add to the above post, I too remember a senior Mod seeming to go along with this.
I'll also add to this what I've been told by a few different Mods. They are not agents of Inno, as they do not get paid. I was told the recompense of gold placed on their accounts each month does not count as pay. Which tells me they have not a clue what the law says a employee is of a company and the legal ramifications.
But you can not rob my financial account like this.
I suppose I too will be banned for this post. At this point I could care less.
And to add to the above post, I too remember a senior Mod seeming to go along with this.
I'll also add to this what I've been told by a few different Mods. They are not agents of Inno, as they do not get paid. I was told the recompense of gold placed on their accounts each month does not count as pay. Which tells me they have not a clue what the law says a employee is of a company and the legal ramifications.
But you can not rob my financial account like this.
I suppose I too will be banned for this post. At this point I could care less.
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DeletedUser
Guest
A handful? Really? Only a handful? BS m8, try thousands of players, at least, not a handful.
Milos21
Phrourach
Richard, I appreciate you are finally trying to be consistent in what you state. Thats a big improvement in Inno games business model.
To clarify, you consider:
- advent calendar was a fault not in programming the game but in course of the game? See Tyrion post below.
- Inno games is not punishing the players but reimbursing themselves what they think is fair
- Inno games is not sanctioning the players who EXPLOITED the system.
I think this is a very, very suspicious in terms of legal matters. Debatable for sure and I am sure court of law would interpret this not in the way Inno games does.
I dont have the ability to start a legal procedure cause I leave far away and this would be very expensive for me personally.
Next, you emntion that section 10.2. does not entitle player to be informed or to appeal to Inno reimbursement. While I agree that section 10.2. does not state that, we both know that this would be consider as non democratic and illegal in any legal system in the world. Thats what differs civilized systems from non civilized ones.
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