Rejected Fix fireships

[DeletedUser]

if this goes through they will need to change the fire ship pop cost to 10 instead of 8 to balance it out

Already did that awhile ago

seeing that FS does not effect CS or Transports I think this change will not give the defender much advantage.
If this idea is implemented Brimies will be as useless as FS currently are!

This will make BR useless

Even though FS don't effect CS or ports, they are better against Light ships. Also, you could need a combo of brims and FS to stop LS, ports, and CS.

reason: sum1 can attack me with 140% bonus and it would mean nothing as fireships have a 1:1 ratio regardless of favorable powers,premium bonuses, researched bonuses, etc

Doesn't this already apply? I am just making it so that FS fight BEFORE brims in a defensive battle.

Like: an incoming attack, send fire ships to intercept... Wasn't really this how they were used?

This is roughly what my idea proposes. That FS fight before brims while defending.

Just like any other unit in the game you simply have to know when and how to use it. For players who understand dodging FS are fantastic. For any non-CS attack I simply leave the FS in the harbor, spend down/dodge/militia. Any escorting FS/Bi can be killed, troops die against militia and for very little cost to me they suffer terribly. I do not think anything is wrong with FS and they simply do not need to be fixed.

The change is not truly in the FS, other then the minor tweaking to balance them, the change is to make it so FS actually do something in a fight other then just against a LS nuke. The attacker only needs the LS to kill all the brims in the harbor and the cship/ports will land, regardless of the number of FS.

 

[DeletedUser13729]

Its to much of a aswell if you let them go first and historically it doesnt make any sense aswell to be honest. But i imagine having fire ships hit transports and cs will make it almost bireme level defense i guess.

 

[DeletedUser]

how about fs hit first but dosen't hit cs or transports?

 

[DeletedUser]

how about fs hit first but dosen't hit cs or transports?

That is what I proposed

 

[DeletedUser13436]

Even though FS don't effect CS or ports, they are better against Light ships. Also, you could need a combo of brims and FS to stop LS, ports, and CS.

But then everyone will train FS and only a few Biremes since it takes only a few of those to wipe out an entire army of transports. FS kill the LS Biremes get rid of transports and CS. The army composition which is 100 Biremes and 20 FS will turn to 100 FS and 20 Biremes.

I am not complaining that this will make Brimies useless I am admiring the change that this will make them useless. Those less defence capability than FS attacking capability good for nothing ships!!! I always make land troops instead of Brimies in defencive cities. Only good they can do is to sink a CS and that rarely happens!!!

 

[DeletedUser]

I strongly dissagree, as a good sized LS user. defenders already have a huge advantage over attackers anyways. Let's say I attack with my colony ship and 50 LS and a good number of transports like 50. You have 40 FS and 40 Biremes. Your FS hit first and take out all but ten of y LS. I'm left with 10 LS, a CS, and 50 Transports. Then i hit the bireme wall, my colony ship destroyed, my LS destroyed and alot of transports destroyed. Witht the system we currently have I'd still own my CS and my transports and you still have your city. Huge difference. No.

 

[DeletedUser]

I strongly dissagree, as a good sized LS user. defenders already have a huge advantage over attackers anyways. Let's say I attack with my colony ship and 50 LS and a good number of transports like 50. You have 40 FS and 40 Biremes. Your FS hit first and take out all but ten of y LS. I'm left with 10 LS, a CS, and 50 Transports. Then i hit the bireme wall, my colony ship destroyed, my LS destroyed and alot of transports destroyed. Witht the system we currently have I'd still own my CS and my transports and you still have your city. Huge difference. No.

First off, your arguing that defense has an advantage when you want 50 attacking ships kills 80. However, your argument is massively flawed. If you attacked with that exact same army against 80 brims(instead of 40/40), you would still get owned only killing 59 brims. Correct?

And anyone who thinks navy favors the defender is mistaken. Brims have a def value of 160, LS has an attacking valve is 200. The wall does not come into effect so navy favors the attacker. Ground favors the defender, with wall and militia but trying to act like this would give a massive disadvantage to the attacker.

 

[DeletedUser2663]

First off, your arguing that defense has an advantage when you want 50 attacking ships kills 80. However, your argument is massively flawed. If you attacked with that exact same army against 80 brims(instead of 40/40), you would still get owned only killing 59 brims. Correct?

And anyone who thinks navy favors the defender is mistaken. Brims have a def value of 160, LS has an attacking valve is 200. The wall does not come into effect so navy favors the attacker. Ground favors the defender, with wall and militia but trying to act like this would give a massive disadvantage to the attacker.

Btw Ls and bir's are equall to each other. neither are supeior as both have an avg defense/offense stat per farm space of 20. even though in 1v1 ls beats bri you can make more bri's than ls with the same amount of farmspace. BTW tower affects naval defense and thats the only feature i can think of that shifts the balance to the defenders as both sides have access to god powers and research and premium

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you, Metalcore, for pointing that out, plus biremes cost less overall. They are also faster and can be stacked on a city. LS have to attack from individuals, overall LS are at a major disadvantage.

 

[DeletedUser7784]

nope check this out

so basically, the attack of Bireme, 20 is worth 10% Of the 200 in ls, but the 60 defense of the ls is worth 40% or so of the 160 bireme difference. but biremes use less pop and cost less...

 

[DeletedUser]

Guy98, rule number one when being attacked, move all offensive units outta the way. Rule number one when attacking, don't attack with defensive units. Ya don't even want to know how many defensive untits I've killed on the defensive.

 

[DeletedUser]

I am against idea of changing anything with fireship. They have a specific purpose. I does not make any sense to make it similar to bireme when you already have bireme.

Only purpose of fireship is to stop some guy from randomly attacking with LS for BP. You can build FS cheaply and quickly and they kills LS in 1:1 ratio. LS is costly to build, takes lots of time and it has really weird resource ratio. So if i attack some guy for LS two or three times for BP and each time he builds 100-200 FS, i will definitely stop attacking him and will find a new target for BP farm. It does not worth it when you can get much better BP values when you attack 200+ LS to a city with 100-150 bireme.

Additionally, i think even naval part is favored for defender. Bireme is cheaper and faster to build. They have a very decent resource ratio. You can build bireme and then whatever silver left, you can put in cave or put it in marker (where somehow people treat silver as real silver and you can get double wood and rock for silver). While LS, as i explained above is not so easy to build.

Yogesh

 

[DeletedUser]

That's what I'm saying yogesh. I know I need silver like crazy, whether it be for hops, spies, or the straight up market value. With LS i can't really do anything with the loads of extra stone, it's useless to me and most others around. FS are already cheap bullets at LS users, and heck, if you don't like biremes them build tiremes. The single most useless navy unit in my opinion... Anyways, it definitally shouldn't be changed.

 

[DeletedUser]

I like the idea, and I think it would make players use them more often. I think that it may make them unbalanced though, cuz you could build more of them. However their speed is slow, so it might not be too much of a problem.

 

[DeletedUser12319]

Well, as per the rules of the forum, this idea should have passed to polls a while ago!

 

[DeletedUser]

Idea moved to development discussions.

I like the dialogue in this thread so far. Keep it up. After reading through every post, I would like to see some more discussion about balancing fireships and biremes so that the latter does not become obsolete or "less valuable" to use for defenders. It's not very practical if improving the value of one unit results in decreasing the value of another unit, which then leads to potential suggestions to improve biremes and more problems.

 

[DeletedUser]

It is a shame that some of the posts criticising this suggesting were on points not in the proposal. But o well.
To that argue that this change would make biremes useless like FS now are I would say that due to the fact FS do not defend against trans or a cs then they would still be needed for that aspect of defence. However someone did make the point that very few biremes would be needed for this due to trans low attack. I think that this is balanced by the need to send naval support to alliance members. So the higher speed of biremes would make them in demand for this task. So they would not become defunct. If this natural solution is still believed to not cover the problem then other solutions could be to increase trans attack stats or to decreased biremes defence score. That seems to make them less desireable, but if you think about it then you would need more biremes to cover the trans. So the balance between the two ship types would be more even due to demand for each role and pop space.
Thoughts

 

[DeletedUser]

Okay, so you'd still need biremes for transports and CS. I don't know if you've evr attacked without an escort before, but it simply doesn't work. Fire ships destroy light ships before they ever come into battle then leaving the transports and the CS stripped of an escort. In thoery, if the battle system works like I think it does then you'd only need 1 bireme to stop a CS or a 100 transports.

 

[DeletedUser]

Okay, so you'd still need biremes for transports and CS. I don't know if you've evr attacked without an escort before, but it simply doesn't work. Fire ships destroy light ships before they ever come into battle then leaving the transports and the CS stripped of an escort. In thoery, if the battle system works like I think it does then you'd only need 1 bireme to stop a CS or a 100 transports.

1 bireme does destroy 100 transporters, if the incoming attack didnt contain any LS.

 

[DeletedUser]

Okay, so you'd still need biremes for transports and CS. I don't know if you've evr attacked without an escort before, but it simply doesn't work. Fire ships destroy light ships before they ever come into battle then leaving the transports and the CS stripped of an escort. In thoery, if the battle system works like I think it does then you'd only need 1 bireme to stop a CS or a 100 transports.

That is not always true. If the attack contains LS, you need a number of brims to kill off the remaining ports. Play around with the sim a bit, its strange but as long as a single LS is with the attack. one or two of the ports has a good chance of landing, even without breakthrough. Proof Below