Lower LS defensive Stats!!

MasterSpy

Chiliarch
i mean that's definitely one way to comprehend my stating that LS defensive stats should be in line with bireme offensive stats considering their other respective stat is identical...

regardless of whatever you're seeming to misconstrue it as doesn't change the fact that LS by nature are less than ideal to hunt in large numbers as one nuke can only clear 4. When compared with slingers, hoplites, or any other offensive unit being able to clear well over 4 offensive nukes of their own...

so, the issue lies in either LS offensive stats are too low in relativity to the rest of the offensive troop types, or LS have an uncharacteristically high defense relative to every other pure offensive unit in the game and should be adjusted to be brought in line with the rest of the game.

but you know, you can point at the morale thing as if it wasn't pure speculative in showing there's situations where LS can be used as effectively as biremes purely because their stats are out of line with where they should be.

honestly though, i shouldn't expect much from the player who was getting dunked on my Grepoholics Anonymous before Meme dropped on 136...
ill spell it out for you then using your examples...sling pop = 1, hop pop = 1 thus using the correct unit to attack with will get you more bp/hit ratio. bir pop = 8, ls pop = 10...ao it makes common sense (maybe something you lack) that ls should have a greater advantage somewhere.
 

Clas17

Lochagos
ill spell it out for you then using your examples...sling pop = 1, hop pop = 1 thus using the correct unit to attack with will get you more bp/hit ratio. bir pop = 8, ls pop = 10...ao it makes common sense (maybe something you lack) that ls should have a greater advantage somewhere.
damn, are you really talking about common sense?
 

Back2Basics

Chiliarch
ill spell it out for you then using your examples...sling pop = 1, hop pop = 1 thus using the correct unit to attack with will get you more bp/hit ratio. bir pop = 8, ls pop = 10...ao it makes common sense (maybe something you lack) that ls should have a greater advantage somewhere.
surely you aren't this daft

LS attack: 200
LS Pop: 10

LS Attack Per population: 200/10 = 20!

Bireme Defense: 160
Bireme Pop:8

Bireme Defense per population: 160/8=20!

The fact that you're using raw population value instead of their actual stat relative to their population is mind numbing to me.



But regardless, the place things get interesting are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Bireme Offense: 24

Bireme Attack/Pop: 3


LS Defense: 60

LS Defense/Pop: 6 (also known as 2*3 since you're obviously losing a step)

Total Stat/Pop LS:26
Total Stat/Pop Bir: 23

LS total Stat after bringing defense in line with Bireme attack: 23

While we're at it, let's grab values for every other naval unit with attacking capability just for comparison's sake.

Hydra Offense/Pop: 26.2
Hydra Defense/Pop: 28

Trireme Offense/Pop:15.625
Trireme Defense/Pop15.625


There's absolutely no justifiable reason that LS would have their intended statistic perfectly in line with Birs while their other statistic so much higher.

Like I said earlier, there's no justifiable reason that the strongest offensive non-mythical ship should have high enough defense where hunting them requires a quarter of a nuke when there's no other pure offensive unit in the game that requires such a large commitment to clearing.

The fact that they can be used defensively on Morale worlds is just a side effect of their defense being abnormally high relative to their utility.

I don't expect you to be able to understand what any of these numbers mean as you're referencing how many population LS and Birs take respectively without referencing any stats because "haha 8 less than 10 LS be stronger"

But as Hydna said, you should be punished for not using alarms or hiding your LS at night. Bring their defensive stats back to the baseline set for pure units in this game and make them purely offensive and easy to hunt when a player is off alarms.
 
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MasterSpy

Chiliarch
surely you aren't this daft

LS attack: 200
LS Pop: 10

LS Attack Per population: 200/10 = 20!

Bireme Defense: 160
Bireme Pop:8

Bireme Defense per population: 160/8=20!

The fact that you're using raw population value instead of their actual stat relative to their population is mind numbing to me.



But regardless, the place things get interesting are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Bireme Offense: 24

Bireme Attack/Pop: 3


LS Defense: 60

LS Attack/Pop: 6 (also known as 2*3 since you're obviously losing a step)

Total Stat/Pop LS:26
Total Stat/Pop Bir: 23

LS total Stat after bringing defense in line with Bireme attack: 23

While we're at it, let's grab values for every other naval unit with attacking capability just for comparison's sake.

Hydra Offense/Pop: 26.2
Hydra Defense/Pop: 28

Trireme Offense/Pop:15.625
Trireme Defense/Pop15.625

Now: Let's break down their total stat per population.

There's absolutely no justifiable reason that LS would have their intended statistic perfectly in line with Birs while their other statistic so much higher.

Like I said earlier, there's no justifiable reason that the strongest offensive non-mythical ship should have high enough defense where hunting them requires a quarter of a nuke when there's no other pure offensive unit in the game that requires such a large commitment to clearing.

The fact that they can be used defensively on Morale worlds is just a side effect of their defense being abnormally high relative to their utility.

I don't expect you to be able to understand what any of these numbers mean as you're referencing how many population LS and Birs take respectively without referencing any stats because "haha 8 less than 10 LS be stronger"

But as Hydna said, you should be punished for not using alarms or hiding your LS at night. Bring their defensive stats back to the baseline set for pure units in this game and make them purely offensive and easy to hunt when a player is off alarms.
wow, you're still going on about this. just accept that what you suggested was completely ridiculous and utterly against anything that a 'strategy' game involves. You forget to include other navel units that can be used to defend, oh yes, fs's exist my friend. Just like in real life war scenarios, there are no 2 weapons etc that completely nullify each other. it's all about using a combination to turn things in your favour and whether you are attacking or defending. Oh, and how about you analyze the resource costs of all units while you're at it!!

Go smoke something and stop thinking about this too much. You were wrong so it's time to get over it and move on.
 

sambr09

Taxiarch
wow, you're still going on about this. just accept that what you suggested was completely ridiculous and utterly against anything that a 'strategy' game involves. You forget to include other navel units that can be used to defend, oh yes, fs's exist my friend. Just like in real life war scenarios, there are no 2 weapons etc that completely nullify each other. it's all about using a combination to turn things in your favour and whether you are attacking or defending. Oh, and how about you analyze the resource costs of all units while you're at it!!

Go smoke something and stop thinking about this too much. You were wrong so it's time to get over it and move on.
I completely disagree, the way LS and Birs are set up are deliberately made to counteract each other and the strategy is based entirely on numbers as that is the way naval battles on this game are and have always been made to be played
 

Back2Basics

Chiliarch
I completely disagree, the way LS and Birs are set up are deliberately made to counteract each other and the strategy is based entirely on numbers as that is the way naval battles on this game are and have always been made to be played
no but you don't understand

LS having 20 offense/pop and Biremes having 20 defense/pop isn't directly counteracting because this is a strategy game
 

ashrf

Taxiarch
I think that’s a good suggestion. LSs should have the same ratios as slings. You could clear 3.3k sling nuke with 500 or so I believe.

There is no reason for me to lose 1/3 of my LS nuke just to clear a LS nuke. I mean you could catch somebody off and can’t even clear all their LSs in most cases.
 

Sorin Markov

Chiliarch
literally said "build bigger nukes" and doesn't know the max nuke size lol. but anyways that's off topic.

Back to the topic, the point which you're so gracefully ignoring is that LS are weak defensively, but not as weak as they should be. The math that @Back2Basics just did out for us shows that under the right circumstances LS are more efficient on defense than Birs. Granted those circumstances are extremely rare but it should never happen. The idea presented is that LS should be as weak defensively as birs are offensively. LS have twice the defensive value per pop when compared to Bir offensive value per pop. At the same time Birs have the same defense per pop as LS have attack per pop. The idea is that why not just give them the same stats just inverted for their use case. Having to send 100 LS to clear a nuke is absurd and the defense of LS should be lowered to fix this.
LS are never more effective defensively than bir. LS in certain situations that are extremely favorable to defense can be better than bir are normally, but that's because of the situation, not the unit. LS are already bad at defense, if you aren't happy with a 3-1 BP-loss ratio, especially on attack, something's wrong with your attitude, not the game.
 
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Back2Basics

Chiliarch
LS are never more effective defensively than bir. LS in certain situations that are extremely favorable to defense can be better than bir are normally, but that's because of the situation, not the unit. LS are already bad at defense, if you aren't happy with a 3-1 BP-loss ratio, especially on attack, something's wrong with your attitude, not the game.
you quite obviously did not read what he wrote.

he wrote that LS should be in line with the stats of their direct intended counterpart. Birs...

Biremes have 20 Defense/Pop
LS have 20 Attack/Pop

Biremes have 3 Attack/Pop
LS have 6 Defense/Pop

He's saying LS are abnormally strong defensively based on the baseline for pure offensive units. No one loses if LS defensive stats are brought in line with where they should be except players who are either non-alarmed or don't hide their troops at night.
 

MasterSpy

Chiliarch
wow, you're still going on. Who said they are their direct intended counterpart, you? what about tris, what about fs? No one unit has a direct counterpart, every unit will have it's pro's and cons. When you start realizing this and forget about the idea of LS being too strong defensively you may even improve your game and look at other strategic options with all units.
 

Kosti

Chiliarch
wow, you're still going on. Who said they are their direct intended counterpart, you? what about tris, what about fs? No one unit has a direct counterpart, every unit will have it's pro's and cons. When you start realizing this and forget about the idea of LS being too strong defensively you may even improve your game and look at other strategic options with all units.
If you wanna stack a siege, what ship do you use to stack it? And what ship would you use to kill a siege? They are counterparts. They are primarily built to counter each other
 

MasterSpy

Chiliarch
Counter each other yes...that is why there are offensive and defensive units. Yet be a direct counterpart, not necessarily due to the presence of the other units i mentioned earlier. And what about revolt, no sieges there. And what about land units and flyers...does that mean all of them should have a 'direct counterpart' too? C'mon, your idea got knocked down and thrown out the window with the trash. Get over it and move on.
 

Sorin Markov

Chiliarch
you quite obviously did not read what he wrote.

he wrote that LS should be in line with the stats of their direct intended counterpart. Birs...

Biremes have 20 Defense/Pop
LS have 20 Attack/Pop

Biremes have 3 Attack/Pop
LS have 6 Defense/Pop

He's saying LS are abnormally strong defensively based on the baseline for pure offensive units. No one loses if LS defensive stats are brought in line with where they should be except players who are either non-alarmed or don't hide their troops at night.
That's not what he said nor what I contradicted. Personally, I'd be fine if that were to happen, but the fact that you're making such a stink about it like the integrity of the game depends on it and using fallacious arguments to back it up is frankly embarrassing to the community.
 

Kosti

Chiliarch
That's not what he said nor what I contradicted. Personally, I'd be fine if that were to happen, but the fact that you're making such a stink about it like the integrity of the game depends on it and using fallacious arguments to back it up is frankly embarrassing to the community.
lol, what integrity does this game have?
 

Corvidaan

Phrourach
LS having double the non primary stat of biremes is definitely an issue of integrity.

Frankly, I think the inno ethics committee should have made a statement about it and addressed it along with its views on Qatar.
 
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