Player's Council Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

maxilex

Phrourach
gee swizz..now - I had hoped this would be more a place where we can list problems to be addressed - using a priority system to get issues listened to or escalated.

It seems ninety percent of this thread is bickering - let me know when there is a procedure set up so I can come in, check what is being raised, vote on it and raise things myself - without getting caught up plowing through pages of this..
 

CF67

Phrourach
Love your post maxilex, definitely lots of gameplay issues that really shouldn't still be around in a game that is this old.

In reading the novel that is the 7 pages of this thread, i really thought id see more people bringing up these issues.

The browser lag, clunky layouts, the extremely terrible mobile app. i have a PC that can run any current game on the market, at full resolution and highest settings. how can a little browser game lag?
And might i add the spam GOLD bonus/offers/ADS that pop up EVEN after you make a purchase, every time you click out of the barracks/senate/harbour you get another pop up. this was the worst one i had seen, and really ruins your playing experience.. I took this screenshot to submit it, forgot and went on VM oooops. Gyazo tells me i took it on 26th September 2017.
ok..erm..ignoring all that - can I raise something for the council members to consider raising with GREPO game designers please...

problem statement: I am sick of this game..

Why - well it is the actual play experience. I am seriously addicted, obviously, and spend a fortune - that is no secret. But the interface - this browser nightmare, lacking any useful features at all is slowly driving me insane.
You cant play the game effectively with just the browser, you have to have the plug ins, to have effective trade, useful reports, to be able to do anything functional - and then the browser cant cope. I have tried them all - IE[blurgh], MS Edge[blurgh], firefox, pale moon, chrome, opera, vivaldi and I am sure some more I have forgotten - oh yeah, safari. I just updated to an SSD - no better..I dont know what else I can add to this machine to make it better - so it is time to look at the software.

Is that really the best you can offer?

Imagine Nintendo offering a game for Xbox that lagged and dragged and slugged through treacle like this does..would you buy it???

well - I am done - sinope finishes in 25 days, I'm playing Tegea as the 100th world, but I am not starting any more and will not play again unless something is done to improve my gaming experience.

I want faster trade - faster farming, to be able to deal with 100 incoming attacks without the whole thing falling over [as that is now the predominent alliance tactic] - what is the point of dealing with morale when a team can send 100 attacks and render a payer useless?

A forum that easier to use, a means to sort and store reports and mails that is searchable.

I am prepared to pay for these luxuries.

I am not prepared to carry on as is, shutting my browser down every 20 minutes because it has lagged to the point of uselessness. The festival screen is the worst - yes I use the very useful add on - and because of that [let me time this..] it takes 33 seconds to put on a round of city festivals. Then, I have to close that screen, reload the page and start over, because that page just kills it. And of course on the app - you cant even do a round of festivals. just one at a time..

If there isn't good news by the time Tegea is winding up, the the CEO of Inno can probably kiss that yacht I bought him goodbye.
 
gee swizz..now - I had hoped this would be more a place where we can list problems to be addressed - using a priority system to get issues listened to or escalated.

It seems ninety percent of this thread is bickering - let me know when there is a procedure set up so I can come in, check what is being raised, vote on it and raise things myself - without getting caught up plowing through pages of this..
Okay so lets start now. What ideas does everyone have? What do they want to see?
 

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
Unfortunately, some of the largest or most important ideas are unlikely to be listened to, or aren't even allowed to be discussed at all.
- Lower frequency of events. We appear to be getting more events each year, with smaller and smaller gaps between them. For example, we're going to have a gap of only about 2 days between the end of the Pandora's Box event, and the start of the Advent Wheel event. But Inno won't do that, because it would lower their short-term profits.
- More transparency and consistency from the moderation system. But Inno won't have the player council discussing the moderation system in any way. (I won't extrapolate on the exact issues, or I will get infracted for mod-bashing.)
- A new endgame. They've been promising one for a long time, but haven't delivered. And at the same time, any endgame suggestions that we make are shunted into the Wish List. Even a change that would let endgame suggestions at least be shown to the devs would be appreciated, I feel.

In terms of ideas that may actually be achievable, here are a couple:
- App improvement. The app is way behind the browser version. Some features worse (command overview, for example), some missing entirely (several of the events, most of the administrator overviews, the battle simulator, the ability to test travel times for units that you don't have in your city, etc).
- An overview of the rest of the intended morale changes, and how (or indeed, if) they plan to change morale to reduce/prevent the use of low-morale drivers in conquest worlds. If they don't have a plan for this, then they should be taking players' suggestions on this issue more seriously.
 
Yeah I know that feel and agree. If its any consolation, PB is dead content in early worlds unless you're burning lots of gold or risking it with no troops.

Just because they don't like mod talk doesn't mean it won't be brought up again.

A new end game is one issue I see as workable in the near future rather than a long drug out fight.
 

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
eah I know that feel and agree. If its any consolation, PB is dead content in early worlds unless you're burning lots of gold or risking it with no troops.
Yeah, I know. I'm in en103, and it was a ridiculous drain on troops so I basically stopped for several days.

It's fairly painful on slow servers as well, even if they have been open for a while. Simply because you are throwing more and more troops at the event, with decreasing chances, and they take quite a while to rebuild.

It's just the fact that Inno seem determined to run more and more events, which means that they aren't actually special anymore. It's probably extremely painful on conquest servers (it was annoying on Olous, that's for sure), because most events with shops make it almost impossible to hold sieges unless you get very lucky.


Just because they don't like mod talk doesn't mean it won't be brought up again.
I'm not saying that the council won't suggest it again. But based on being told that Inno refused to even discuss it, and a few other similar issues with lack of communication, I think it's unlikely to get anywhere.

A new end game is one issue I see as workable in the near future rather than a long drug out fight.
I wish I shared your optimism. :p
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
some common complaints/ things that ppl want address that I found in this thread (top two most important/ stressed by ppl):
1. cheating: inno doing a better job of finding it, employees doing a better job of uniformly applying punishments, if mods are unwilling to apply punishments REMOVE THEM
2. a better/ faster interface or software: more than a new endgame, pretty pics, or more bells/ whistles, we need to be rid of all the bugs (esp those that are supposed to be fixed in all the old updates). after BP, no one needs banners or countdown clocks. before the devs change things, the old stuff works first.
3. make the app/ mobile experience better: the wish list has a bunch of items that would give app only players a much better experience
4. less spam: but we've heard inno won't address this so maybe thinking of a way for them to make spamming a less useful too for players
(MI has a thread about a cool down time for stone hail. perhaps something similar could be proposed to decrease spamming. a quick thought.)
5. a break time that isn't vm: short emergency breaks (you get in an accident, your kid gets sick, etc.). not sure the mechanics of how it would work or how it would not get abused
 
@Rachel.L

1) I fully agree. Its not even just finding them. When they get caught, cheaters can just get slaps on the wrist, change accounts, and come back. This will definitely be a top priority and already was from what I've read. Better software for tracking botting has been discussed too. That would come down to the inner passing it and Inno funding it.

2) I'm not entirely familiar. What bugs are there currently? And has support been contacted? We'll definitely see what we can do on our end. :)

3) I agree with the app, its due for an update.

4) We'd definitely love ideas on how to combat spam without creating large amounts of inconvenience to the game.

5) I feel this one. But I'm not sure how it would work. If you or anyone else want to work on the idea a bit though, we can try to field it.

@Kal Gordon

On Modding: The issue is that modding is becoming more and more of a community issue. A lot of the infractions I've seen get dished out in the previous year and the mod hate has come from unpopular decisions. Usually in game. That's not so much the mod's fault either. They're bound by their job to enforce the rules. I do however thing that some transparency becoming necessary. I think Inno would do well to tackle these issues now before groups start mass ghosting and player outrage is everywhere.

On End Game: Well I look at it like this, I think we all agree that this end game isn't great. Which means we are all open to change. My personal take is that something needs to change and that Inno should feel free to play around with different end game ideas and see what the community likes. Maybe that's a WW revamp for a couple servers, maybe that's a score based system for a couple more, maybe its a special event on others. The thing I think that has stalled the ideas department is that they can't find a specific end game. But they do have to start moving forward.
 

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
On Modding: The issue is that modding is becoming more and more of a community issue. A lot of the infractions I've seen get dished out in the previous year and the mod hate has come from unpopular decisions. Usually in game. That's not so much the mod's fault either. They're bound by their job to enforce the rules.
Actually, the main issue with modding (from most players I have talked to) is that the rules aren't being enforced consistently or properly. If there were a consistent and fair system, I think there would be a lot less mod hate from the community.

I'm screenshotting this for future reference.
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
@The Smilodon Fatalis:
1. know this has had a lot of press so won't go farther. as long as it is a top priority, I think players will be happy.

2. not a coder but I think the complaint is just that everything runs too slowly for ppl who have dedicated gaming computers, which shouldn't be. in terms of bugs, i'm going to name some things off the top of my head but these are by no means all or major items. (others can add to the list.) but when you add them up, they make life harder and slower. (and the devs/ ig mods know and don't see as a priority.)
- your pop says you have enough to build X but when you click to build it, it says insufficient pop (you have the resources so that isn't a problem.)
- in an update, they "revamped" the farms/ bandit villages so that there were no more than two wood for stone, silver for wood, etc., and yet many islands still have the old random four or five wood for stone
-banners, and banners on top of banners
-double posting of attacks/ support in the swords when there is only one incoming... refresh and cache clear does not solve the problem

3. I've been working on this in multiple places. Trying to drill down to what inno can actually implement.

4. I have no ideas. the one I threw out above was really just seat-o-pants. I think that if the interface can be buffed up this will become less of a problem. it will be annoying, tons of incoming/ reports, but if ppl's computers don't crash, it will be less of a hassle. jmo

5. No ideas, Again, we all feel it but instituting it is another story.
 
1) Definitely a top priority.

2) Not sure about the banners. Can confirm the farm villages tho.

3) We'll do our best to figure out what can be done.

4) There's also the annoyance factor too. The ideas I've seen involve restricting attacking from one city. But that seems like the kind of inconvenience that would make someone quit as well.

5) We can try to figure it out.

@Kal Gordon

I should clarify, this is what I notice largely of forum mods. Since I spend a lot of time on the forums, this is where I have most my experiences. That said, for IGMS I would largely agree, they tend to be inconsistent. I had an experience with this on a US world where different punishments were being given to different players, an entire incriminating conversation was deleted by the mods after a ticket was sent in, and the general opinion was that something shady was happening and one side was being favored.

I've also had experiences of either favoritism or gross incompetence. We had an encounter on Lato where someone thought to be botting was given a ban on Christmas peace which ended after the peace ended. They were later hit again in WW with the same charge. There was also the instance of a player being gifted a then friend's account, putting a lot of gold on it, claiming to have sent a support ticket in for a proper hand off, and then leaving that friend's alliance due to them being a terrible leader and person. Of course that friend ghosted the account. Support refused to give the culture points back, restore the account, or refund the money. However in a US world, support did restore an account I hear when it was hit with a similar situation. I think this is definitely something that we have to tackle.

Also an update on the inner council votes: It looks like we have our main spokesperson. We're just waiting for Bear to cast his final vote on the sub and we'll be able to give the results. Alternatively there's also a timer on the poll and it'll close tomorrow. Whatever the results are by then are what we roll with. :)
 

ThasossCZ

Guest
Support refused to give the culture points back, restore the account, or refund the money. However in a US world, support did restore an account I hear
You've heard... that's the problem. As I said, you shouldn't try to solve issues regarding to the support teams as you don't have exact (and especially right) information. You will never have... unless you became an in-game mod (of that world). Something like restoring of an account is simply impossible. There is no such way to do it, excluding a global roll back of data.

Players really like lying to their mates. That's a (sad) fact. It's always better to blame a support team as ingame mods can't defend themselves as they can't provide no (compromising) info. ;)
 

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
@ThasossCZ

There are issues relating to the support teams. The GPC's job is to put forward improvements wanted by the community. One of the major things wanted by the community is improved consistency/reliability and transparency in the moderation system. So the GPC is actually doing their job by trying to voice these concerns to Inno. It's not their fault that Inno refuses to even discuss concerns about this aspect of the game, let alone make improvements.

If you want me to list some cases that I know to be true, then PM me on the forums. I would write them here, but I will probably have my post deleted (same as the last time I asked an open question about one of these issues on this forum.

*Screenshotted for future reference.
 

Rachel.L

Phrourach
thas, again, we all agree, the IGMs (when doing things right), have a hard road to tow
and the lying by friends may happen
however, in the last month, there have been too many instances of "coincidence" handed out by the same mod(s), in different worlds, in different circumstances, and helping the same 2-3 teams (players the same, grouped differently)
to me that is the beginning of a theory as to something afoul
if they are unable or unwilling to do what's right, someone should be there that can
and perhaps the answer is not players from other worlds but dedicated devs, coders, programmers, ft employees who MUST follow the rules

I too have enough evidence and cases to list for you that I can send off forum to give you pause in your thinking that the IGMs are always in the right
just ask

*got my pic too
 

ThasossCZ

Guest
Of course, I don't want to say that nobody breaks the rules (me as well as you don't have any detailed backstage info from that mentioned markets... so we can't say this exactly). Yes, this can happen... because of human factor. However, it's something very rare, fortunately. My experience is that circa 90% of players (on my market) lie about their bans. They often consciously share a wrong/adjusted info to their team mates who trust them more. It's terrible.

I want to say I'm afraid it's wasting of time to try to solve this issue. There isn't much space to changes even though you don't think so.

If your team mate is banned, I can recommend to ask him for screenshots of a full conversation with the support team in which that in-game mod should be able to explain him what rules and how they have been broken, without mentiong any personal data to that player (e.g. an IP address). You still don't see the game logs but it's less chance that you get an incorrect info.

Also, you can send a complaint via e-mail to the company whenever you want where you can (or... you should, better said) describe who's broken the rules, how he's done it... some more detailed info if you understand. English and German speaking markets are in advantage as the Lead Community Management can check that situation on its own.

It's impossible to break the rules and stay undetected... thanks to this, as I said, it's reaaaalllyyy rare (a CM must be simply blind) that an IGMS would break them for a long time. Mystifications and misunderstandings are far away more often.

Adding any layer of transparency could put the teams or punished players to unwanted pressure in my opinion. No mentioning that there's still a data which can't be provided to the whole community... so, it could lead to even worse misunderstandings.

About this topic, I believe that the community need a change, not the teams. I don't want to be rude, of course.

There are many actual topics which won't be discussed just because of modding and revamping the end game. Who checks the DevBlog? Who checks the daily updates on the Beta market? There're interesting changes which can be discussed... in feedback threads initiated by the GPC.

Just see the .de external forum. They discuss every change even before it arrives on their market. That's nice and impressing! I think other markets could reach the same result (with help of the GPC).

The GPC members could test daily updates on their own, then start discussions by sharing their thoughts and spreading that on live worlds... so they could gather feedback from more players. However, currently, we don't know anything about their opinions... even the Pandora's box thread isn't created by them.

I think that the first goal of this local GPC should be estabilishing of communication with the community...
 

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
I want to say I'm afraid it's wasting of time to try to solve this issue. There isn't much space to changes even though you don't think so.
There is space to change, but Inno are unwilling to accept the issues, let alone make the changes.

It's impossible to break the rules and stay undetected... thanks to this, as I said, it's reaaaalllyyy rare (a CM must be simply blind) that an IGMS would break them for a long time. Mystifications and misunderstandings are far away more often.
Part of the point is that the rule-breaking is not staying undetected. There are cases where it is extremely clear that a particular player has been breaking the rules (e.g. offensive content in a PM), where it is reported to the moderators and nothing happens (and we know for sure that nothing happens).

Adding any layer of transparency could put the teams or punished players to unwanted pressure in my opinion. No mentioning that there's still a data which can't be provided to the whole community... so, it could lead to even worse misunderstandings.
Assuming that most bans are correct, it's the player's fault for cheating. And they already have this transparency here on the external forums - you can look at someone's profile and see what warnings they have been given in the past. But for some reason we don't get that same transparency in-game.

You talk about contacting Inno or the Community Manager. I have tried to talk to both the Community Manager and the Co-Community manager about a particular issue with moderation in the past. They both ignored the concerns as if they didn't exist. And when another player attempted to discuss the same concerns with one of them, he received a fairly unsatisfactory response, I believe. I recently sent in a support ticket asking for a way to contact Inno directly. Instead, I was forwarded to the Community Manager, who said he would be happy to discuss my concerns. I listed two concerns with moderation. That was over 5 days ago, and still no reply (despite being reminded by another moderator). I think that showcases the issue right there: Inno and it's moderation team aren't willing to acknowledge major flaws in the system.

Given that this post will most likely be deleted anyways, I'm going to include this little gem.
Screenshot_1243.png
Screenshot_1242.png
This is the sort of issue that the Community Manager has so far been unwilling to discuss.

*Screenshotted for future reference.
 

ThasossCZ

Guest
info@innogames.com is that mail where you can put any staff related complaint.
About attached screenshots, I unfortunately don't know what it means "bully and a liar" in this case. However generally, you can't be strict too much in giving out punishments for PMs or profiles/name cities... I suppose you talk about this as you can't be banned for breaking the rules on your ally forum.
There are cases where it is extremely clear that a particular player has been breaking the rules (e.g. offensive content in a PM)
Not every offensive content needs to lead to a ban. I don't know if I can share more why it always doesn't lead to any ban, so... just saying it's most likely okay.

Yep, you can think it's a clear case from your point of view but an in-game mod needs enough evidence in the system. However, I recommend to speak with the team only via official community platform as something (in case of a complaint) on Skype etc. can't be considered much.
 

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
info@innogames.com is that mail where you can put any staff related complaint
Thanks. I will be sure to get in contact with them.

About attached screenshots, I unfortunately don't know what it means "bully and a liar" in this case. However generally, you can't be strict too much in giving out punishments for PMs or profiles/name cities... I suppose you talk about this as you can't be banned for breaking the rules on your ally forum.
Bullying basically breaks 3 different parts of the Code of Conduct section of the Game Rules. That screenshot shows that a particular moderator condones bullying, and therefore condones breaking the rules that they are meant to uphold. They actually went on to defend bullying in general, both for real life and in-game cases.

Not every offensive content needs to lead to a ban. I don't know if I can share more why it always doesn't lead to any ban, so... just saying it's most likely okay.
Given that said content included threats of a violent and/or sexual nature, and there were multiple cases of it by the same perpetrator, it was definitely ban-worthy for the example I am talking about. (Again, I can discuss more in PM if you want.)

Yep, you can think it's a clear case from your point of view but an in-game mod needs enough evidence in the system. However, I recommend to speak with the team only via official community platform as something (in case of a complaint) on Skype etc. can't be considered much.
- Is a blunt violent/sexual threat in a personal message not enough evidence?
- That screenshot was from part of a general conversation on the en98 world chat room on skype, rather than being a direct attempt to appeal to a moderator via Skype. The point is that a moderator openly condones in-game bullying. When I have tried to talk to the Community Manager or Co-Community Manager about that particular issue via forum PM or support ticket, they ignore it.

*Screenshotted for future reference.
 
Last edited:

Kal Gordon

Phrourach
InnoGames GmbH Games
040 7 88 93 35-0

Harburger Schloßstr. 28
21079 Hamburg, Harburg


Seak and ye shall find or if all else fails Google it
Thanks. I tried that originally, but got fed up because the "support" system just takes you straight back to the Grepolis support ticket system, which is what I had been trying to go above, due to the nature of the issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.