Spam Attacking - Let us begin the conversation here

Discussion in 'Player's Council /Community Discussion' started by Oelyndeus, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. molinillo

    molinillo Hipparchus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    There should be a better support tool for this.
    Attacks could be categorized by size (their population usage):
    1: from 1 to 49 population (city has less than 50% units built)
    2: from 50 to 99 population (city has minimum 50% units built)
    3: from 100 to 999 population
    4: from 1000 to 1499 population
    5: from 1500 population

    Ingame admins wouldn’t have to go through all reports, just check an overview.

    Player A has 10 cities and sent 1000 minimal attacks (50% flash attacks) to annoy 1 player the last 24 hours.
    The support would see this:

    Number of attacks: 1000
    Targeted players: 1
    Targeted cities: 10
    Average attack size: 1
    Cancelled attacks: 500

    Verdict: ban

    Player B has 10 cities and sent 1000 favor farm attacks (5 harpies each) the last 24 hours.

    Number of attacks: 1000
    Targeted players: 250
    Targeted cities: 250
    Average attack size: 2
    Cancelled attacks: 0

    Verdict: not spam

    Player A would be most likely reported, however Player B most likely wouldn’t be reported.
    Of course most cases aren’t this simple, but filters (by time period, target player, target alliance) could clarify if an abuse really happened.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  2. Miknel

    Miknel Phrourach

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    This is silly. You've used the word "hard" and "difficult" in just about every post you've made here. Yes, we are readily aware that there isn't an "easy" solution to this. If there was, it likely would have been addressed, as Inno thrives on fixing the problems that have easy solutions.

    So if you want to fix a "difficult" problem, perhaps you should be addressing the real questions and working from there.

    I.e., what is the most effective way to solve the spam problem without physically altering the game to an unrecognizable format?

    Every solution I've seen thus far has involved some sort of alteration to the way attacks/supports are sent/cancelled. Even a slider format would harm those of us that prefer playing fast speed worlds and require immediate pings to be able to respond effective. The only one I have seen thus far that answers that question is moderation.

    So assuming that is the case, the next question is: how do we effectively revamp our moderation to address the needs that come with an additional work load caused by additions to the rules?

    Well, like I said - there are ways you can do that. Making two in-game announcement in approaching 10 years of existence that MODERATION NEEDS YOU! isn't exactly the most effective means of adding help.

    Basically all your responses here have been we don't have enough people to support the additional workload. Ok, then find additional people to support the workload. Of the two questions, 1) how to fix spam and 2) how can we recruit more volunteers, which is the most easily remedied? I'm sorry, but I feel like you're making more difficult than this actually has to be.
     
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  3. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Phrourach

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    @molinillo , those are very easy cases, i think
    it's the grey that worries me... players that rely on good timing (but bad luck with the anti-timer) and so may cancel attacks but then resend with imp move and don't cancel, hcs/ attacks that get pulled when players come online or start spelling, etc.

    btw, my population math could be wrong but ...
    in each case you have 10 cities and 1000 attacks, which averages 100 waves per city
    For person A, yes, you could do attacks of 34 or less
    But for B, I don't think you can get 100 waves of 50+ even at minimum build
    this is besides the point of your post but you may want to rethink this
    or i have misunderstood your categories on attack size

    @Miknel, ofc it's easier to get more mods
    but who wants to be a mod?
    other than one good interaction, i never get an actual answer let alone any help from an ig mod
    it can't be a bug cuz we've never seen it (6 months later, proven bug)
    it can't be cheating (tho we've banned that person before)
    it must be your fault (even tho you weren't online att)
    either these ppl always HAVE to give the party line, aren't given the tools to help players, or they don't care
    idk which it is but who wants to get stuck in that cycle?
     
  4. molinillo

    molinillo Hipparchus

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    The big spammers could be easily pointed out - uncertain cases would need more analysis, chances are high players wouldn’t risk spam strategies if they would risk ban and there were records.

    When you ask someone to prove they got spammed and get 10 reports do you believe them? How long time does it take to find all reports, check how many were against same city, whether it was HC and followed by real attack... players and support have same tool as @Baudin Toolan posted. I dont’t think the manpower is missing.

    cancel/resend technique means you send big attacks, max 5 attempts are followed by a successful or failed attack so that can be more than for a player who uses anchors / improved speed only

    flash attackers use small attacks (multiple attacks from same city) most often and let them run longer than few seconds to make sure it alerts the defender but they cancel to avoid any loss

    probably only attacks cancelled after 10sec should be counted as ‘cancelled’ and attacks cancelled within 10sec shouldn’t even notify that way timing attempts wouldn’t create a bad record or annoying notifications before the command is final

    Worst case scenario is failed timing after more attempts, but then most likely the records would also show successful attacks against same target, therefore Support could assume the purpose was not spam. Lot depends on the ratio of total number of attacks vs. cancelled attacks (guidelines should be set what is abuse).

    For example I often look for lightship nukes that have few seconds longer travel time than CS.
    I send and cancel these minimum 2 attacks until my CS lands same second like LS nuke. Sometimes I can reach 10 attempts (or that’s when I give it a break). All attacks are big. I assume after X attempts this technique can be tagged unfair and called flash attack since the defender has no chance for bireme frontsnipe and it can get really annoying to trigger the alarm so many times for perfection.

    cancelled HCs even if small attacks are sent against different cities, aren’t repeated
    support could see how many targets were involved and whether there was repetition on an unwanted level by using filters (attacks against same player or same city)

    As for the maths the example was about a 24 hour period.
    33 attacks per city max, so player had to send more farming waves, or more flash waves (repeated attacks without final command). I assumed they send 25 farming attacks per city 4 times a day to the same targets (have a farm list and minimum 167 harpies built per city to be able to attack with 5 harpies), while the flash attacker can build only 25 units per city for the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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  5. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Phrourach

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    @molinillo, i think in MOST cases you are correct but there are still things that are legit sends that will look like spam
    and all you say assumes the reviewer has leeway to think about a scenario, not just follow a formula
    that's asking a lot
    again, i personally believe the first step is definition and the second is in the hands of the gpc (or mods)... finding out what the real capabilities (desires) of the devs are so suggestions are not puppies and rainbows
    but in the meantime, all the discussion is good

    also, i misunderstood about the attacks so thanks for the clarification
    i thought the 24 hrs was to show activity before the spam/ not spam period not that it was
    makes more sense now, ofc

    i appreciate the insight from both you and @Baudin Toolan, letting us know where things stand
    ty
     
  6. Fluvisol

    Fluvisol Chiliarch

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Just gonna point out that when I was a mod in training I tried to completely type out any response by myself but eventually had to quit because I simply didn't have the time to do it
    While it comes across way more personal for the people submitting tickets, it's insanely time consuming in the long run, especially if you consider mods can also be actively playing game worlds and usually do
    Ultimately I think the only way to get around that is to get proper paid moderators, but that brings the additional problem that it's very likely they have no first hand experience with the game (I can be wrong but who would want to play a game that's literally their job to moderate)

    @Miknel
    I think putting this in the hands of moderators isn't the right way to go. There's already numerous players complaining about mods being biased and falsely banning people (whether that's true is another story), once you add an actual subjective ban reason with no clear pointers to what is a ban and what isn't those complaints would skyrocket
    Now there's two cases imo
    Keep the volunteer mod system
    Pros:
    They know the game, and can distinguish between spam and other types of attacks (hopefully)
    Cheap for Inno
    Cons:
    People volunteering to ban others they have a dislike for comes to mind, even if they get kicked out later the damage can be done
    But what would be harder to spot, not banning people for actual spam. The term "loyalty" gets thrown around so much in this game, it's really not that hard to imagine that someone wouldn't ban a player out of loyalty, or because they convinced themselves they don't spam. What is the player receiving the spam going to do? You can only keep reporting and hope another mod picks it up
    Get paid moderators
    Pros:
    Threat of losing their job would mean no bias
    Cons:
    These people could just not know the difference between spam and favour farming for instance. If the system points out it's myths being used, then what prevents people from spamming myths? And what about sending a minimal hc before each groups of myths to check if the city hasn't been stacked yet? That wouldn't show up as a favour farm attack. It would be really hard to get people unfamiliar with the game to distinguish between all those things
    Costs money for Inno
     
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  7. Tarbisu

    Tarbisu Lochagos

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2018
    Why not just add a setting which allows you to select which commands you see on your command menu?

    Like if you have a cs inc, make it so you can only select and see the cs, first clearing, first support, and your own troop movements.

    Then you cant spam to disrupt backsniping. However, the player has to make sure their troops dont get wiped in the process, because they cannot see other attacks inc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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  8. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Phrourach

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    fluv, understood and not asking for a book every time
    just asking for something clarifying and helpful, something that shows the mod gives a
    too many are cut and paste answers of oh so sorry, looking into it, more later...
    i can deal with that if eventually you tell me what actually happened rather than brushing me off for "bigger issues", esp when my issue is a lost city/ siege
    i'd even take an answer (probably not allowed) of we don't know so we aren't changing anything
    i don't speak for everyone, just myself

    sorry we have gotten this thread off the topic of spam
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2018
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  9. Oelyndeus

    Oelyndeus Phrourach

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Thanks to everyone who has participated so far in this chat. I am thrilled to see that many of our community members feel so strongly about this issue, and even BT has spoken in on the issue. [​IMG]

    I will weigh in on my proposed solution after a few more speak, as I am still learning on how everyone feels on the subject. Please don't forget to sign your name if you wish to join the petition against Spam Attacking. Also help define it more so we can distinguish between legitimate attacks and ones that we should prevent.
     
  10. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Phrourach

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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  11. 0ZZZ

    0ZZZ Phrourach

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Going with the "Definition: Attacking and recalling attacks persistently with the purpose to annoy an enemy and desensitize them to their attack alarm."

    Putting mods in the position to judge any crime of intent is a bad idea.
    Judges that go to school for years and lawyer for another 20 just to wear the black robes suck at this in real life. That's why they invented juries. You think Volunteers in a game will do any better ?

    Do things that way and you get a game full of people that spent way too much time telling the teacher that some one broke wind in their general direction and not enough time socking the school yard bully back in his own eye.
    This is a WAR game. It should be filled full of fighters not crybabies.

    The simplest way to solve this version of spam is to add a second alarm. 1 that only goes off at the point of no return. That would be the 10 min mark.
    That way you can shut off the notice of any attack that has not broke the 10 min marker but leave the box checked for the "committed attacks."
    Yes it will cost a little money to code it. This game makes a truck load of money daily. You get what you pay for.

    Note: This is not the same as a slide bar. It is easier, cheaper, and faster to code so it might have a snowballs chance in Hades to come about.

    Note 2: When I began there was no app at all. The tough players were tougher. To many players use it as a crutch. I'd like to see it removed all together.
    To many cry babies getting their way. So you have to turn your alarm off? Excuse me while I go call you the waahmbulance.
     
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  12. Tjaard

    Tjaard Chiliarch

    Joined:
    May 15, 2015
    So you should be kicked? Hahaha
    Hypocritical
     
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  13. Semajoes.

    Semajoes. Phrourach

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
  14. MythicalPoodle

    MythicalPoodle Hipparchus

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    Kinda agree with this legend, only reason people spam is to force their enemies to turn off the alarm or to ring it and annoy them, if there is no mobile app alarm, it would not matter, either you get lucky and clear what you wanted or you hit militia... pretty fair to me.. no point sending 100 + attacks to land seconds apart nor to spam ping for days in order to clear 1 city offense or whatever...

    It does not cost anything to remove something already apart of the game that enabled opponents to start abusing its features.
     
  15. Kratos Giantsbane

    Kratos Giantsbane Hipparchus

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Capture.PNG

    Woah, Just so you know, I never recalled any of my attacks after launching. Who's the hypocrite here?
     
  16. MythicalPoodle

    MythicalPoodle Hipparchus

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    that is not the definition of spam.
    that is constantly ringing someone's alarm.
    Spam is constantly sending fake attacks and not pulling them back within 10 minutes of them being sent.
    So yeah you are a spammer.
     
  17. Tjaard

    Tjaard Chiliarch

    Joined:
    May 15, 2015
    In what way am i hypocritical?
    I have to admit in my interpretation he wants to talk about pings and 24/7 spam. Might have gotten that one wrong. But talk recentl defo was about spam and not pinging. Wouldnt make any sense calling pinging spaming lmao

    And Tell me where is the difference spaming with 30 minimum ls atts per h for days and pinging? In fact sending spams is even worse as the pinging problem will soon be solved thx to new settings implemented by IG which allow you to get a push notification after 1-10 min.

    You talk about the „spirit“ of the game. Is it the spirit of the game sending 100 spam fakes 24/7?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  18. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Phrourach

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    as @Tusc2010 pointed out earlier, many of the allowed third party scripts have alarms, includes ones that email an alert
    getting rid of the app alarm does not solve this problem
    that is why we have a discussion about other ways to deal with this issue

    this thread is not to call out spammers
    go trash talk somewhere else
     
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  19. MythicalPoodle

    MythicalPoodle Hipparchus

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    and creating that stupid slider for spam is useless because in 99% cases you will have attacks with 5-9 min TT and CS's as well so what you are discussing would not work either.
     
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  20. Rachel.L

    Rachel.L Phrourach

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    i didn't say the slider was good or bad
    did you see me post anywhere that it was/ wasn't?

    i'm just saying your solution solves zilch
    you have made two negative comments in this thread and said nothing helpful, no suggestion whatsoever
    at least others are trying to work the problem
     
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